colregs again.. tacking in front of a mobo

[BustinAround]

Surely the point is that if said sailing boat (the stand on vessel) is 10 yards from the bow of the motor boat (the give way vessel) and the motorboat is doing more than half a knot then the motorboat hasn't given way at all!


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[Mike21]

rule 9(a) states vessel navigating narrow channel to stay as close as practical to starboard marker, which would tend to suggest tacking from side to side is not really in the spirit of the rule.
Also having seen yachts tack across narrow fairways while others are able to sail without tacking, would also suggest that some are rather arrogant.
Also rule 9(b) about not impeding vessels that can only safely navigate in a narrow fairway

Local byelaws may also exclude tacking across channels, Hamble byelaw states vessels crossing fairway are giveway vessel.
Would this mean yacht tacking across fairway has to give way?

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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Mike21 on 19/07/2004 11:29 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Mike21]

Re: Back to Awarenes

There's a site on web with the colregs
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://members.lycos.co.uk/Robert_Laws/colregs.html>here</A>

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[PerL]

The operative fault in your reasoning is that when a motor boat has given the sailing boat the appropriate sea room, the sailing boat should be physically unable to create a dangerous situation by tacking.

If tacking in a narrow channel (and accepting your assumptions) the sailing vessel in a narrow channel should tack whenever the captain deems it necessary and any motorboat should take action to stay clear including - if necessary - waiting for the sailingboat to be clear of the channel before entering himself.

The same applies to the sailingboat if for example a ship constrained by draught enters the channel.

That said, from reading your example I can only assume that the motorboat is already in breach of the COLREGS and that the sailing boat is also obliged to avoid collision when danger is imminent and for that reason shouldn't tack.

From a legal perspective and in the event of an accident, I would assume that since the motorboat is in breach of the rules first, he is the one that has to prove that the sailingboat was in breach later on and he would be guilty regardless of the action of the sailing boat whereas the sailingboat can only be judged to be partially responsible. But that would be one for the lawyers to solve.

IMHO of course.

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[bedouin]

I'm not going to defend the behaviour of all yachts in narrow fairways - I shouted at one a couple of weeks ago which was clearly behaving in a stupid fashion.

It is not clear the extent to which Rule 9 impacts sailing vessels tacking up a narrow channel. It certainly does not put a blanket prohibition on a sailing boat doing so and the concept of "as close as practical to the starboard" has no real meaning for a sailing boat. In practice when a sailing boat is tacking up a narrow channel it will have to use every inch of available depth. The usual technique is to keep your eye on the depth sounder and tack when there is about 6 inches under the keel (varies a lot depending on bottom, width of channel).

I am not an expert but in most cases I imagine that a MoBo draws less than my 6 feet so a MoBo following Rule 9 (a) (being as far to starboard in the channel as possible - doesn't mention buoys) is not likely to be sharing water with a yacht drawing twice as much.

There is also great difference between different yachts - so it is not surprising that some can sail straight up a channel while others have to tack.

Local byelaws also restrict (or discourage) sailing boats with an engine from sailing in certain circumstances but in the absence of such a rule tacking would not be considered "crossing the fairway".

As far as "not to impede" goes - that does not make the other vessel stand on vessel. The requirement "not to impede" means making sure that the other vessel has the space safely to carry out their requirements as give way vessel.

As always common sense has to apply.


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[Mike21]

Unfortunately common sense seems to be sadly lacking, especially at weekends

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[MainlySteam]

<<<and take full account of the likely actions of the stand on vessel>>>

I would be interested in being directed to the clause in the International Collision Regulations that says that.

While looking for it you may come across the bit that actually says something along the lines of if one vessel has to keep out of the way of another then the stand on vessel must maintain its course and speed ie the only likely action the vessel required to keep clear is obliged to consider is that the stand on vessel will keep its course and speed.

John

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[bedouin]

I was paraphrasing Rule 2.

For the most part I think common sense usually does prevail and more often than not complaints tend to be caused by people not fully understanding the factors affecting the other party.

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[PerL]

I assume you are referring to Rule 17 concerning the behaviour of a stand on vessel.

First of all, it seems obvious that this rule does not apply between classes. If it did, it would mean that a ship following a narrow passage would not be allowed to turn regardless of how the passage turns and it would mean that a ship not under command would not be allowed to turn or change speed when the wind or current changes direction or speed. Just to mention a few examples.

Second, and more important, 17 "(d) This Rule does not relieve the give-way vessel of her obligation to keep out of the way."

IMHO
Per

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[MainlySteam]

In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

(Perhaps quite a paraparaparaphrase /forums/images/icons/smile.gif)

Which means if the yacht has to tack to avoid a danger and can do so without putting the powered vessel in danger eg crash stop, abrupt change of course (after all the power boat may in turn be the stand on vessel to another which is overtaking him and for that vessel he is obliged to maintain his speed and course), then he may. Otherwise he shall not. He cannot relieve himself from danger by creating, or potentially creating a danger to another. The yacht is just as much bound by rule 2 as the power boat is.

I agree, good sense should and usually does prevail. Perhaps an advantage we have in having this forum is the room to air these things so that we better understand the needs of other vessels.

John

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[bedouin]

I think the "Between classes" is a red herring.

Colregs has two forms of priority "Shall not impede" and "Keep out of the way of".

The power gives way to sail rule (18) says that the power vessel shall "keep out of the way" of the sailing vessel. That makes the sailing vessel stand on vessel under Rule 17.

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[KevB]

But what constitutes "keep out of the way"?? Maybe the Mobo is "out of the way" till the sail boat gets in it's way!! You can't seriously expect a mobo to keep as far away from every sail boat so that all the sail boats can do whatever manoeuvre they like? If I am motoring down Chi harbour keeping far away from you so you can tack without us ever being in a collision situation then I guarantee I have put myself in that situation with another yacht/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif Cant win/forums/images/icons/frown.gif
I think the "keep out of the way" is being interpreted too literally by some.

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[KevB]

And, to be honest, I don't think there is much of a problem with real sail boats and mobo's. It's the bloody little dinghy things that cause the most problems. If only I had had my camera with me this weekend, I could have proved the point.

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[MainlySteam]

I do not think anyone is much fussed about power boats having to keep out of the way of sailing vessels.

What power boats do not like is having a sailboat they are overtaking tack in front of them, suddenly making the power boat a "give way" vessel, in the "get out of my way" sense in the sailboat's eyes, rather than the simple overtaking of a vessel maintaining its speed and course sense. All I am saying if you read my posts is that a sailboat cannot exhibit that behaviour.

If the sailboat misjudged the manoeuvrability of the power boat (say the power boat was low powered and could not crash stop in time) or forced the power boat into avoiding action which caused it to collide with another vessel to which it was the stand on vessel (in which case it has to maintain its course and speed) or to which it was also the give way vessel and required to keep clear, then the sail boat will be in the wrong.

I am not sure where you are coming from about ships not being able to follow channels - think it is obvious that following a channel is correct, but suddenly turning (eg tacking) in front of another vessel whether following a channel or otherwise, is not.

Anyway, lucky for me it is 12:30am so about bedtime. And to all, tack safely /forums/images/icons/smile.gif.

John

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[Aardee]

Am I missing out on something...are the seas REALLY full of people nearly hitting each other while spouting chaper & verse on obscure paragraphs of the colregs??

I never realised my sailing life was so empty.

<hr width=100% size=1>"I am a bear of very little brain and long words bother me" - A A Milne.

 

[Guest]

If read so literally then no boat under engine would be able to enter a narrow channel occupied by just one boat under sail. Clearly this would be idiotic and can never have been the intention of the Colregs author(s) who are/were writing for general conditions. In the absence of special bylaws, I would suggest that the prudent sailor would just simply switch on his engine and use it in restricted and congested waters.

The density of pleasure craft has increased rapidly and it may be that the colregs have not caught up yet. Until they do it seems to me that sailing boats should forego the "I am in the right and to hell with everyone else" attitude in the interest of harmony.

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[Scaramoosh]

Before posting I must plead guilty! Current boat is a 38ft Flybridge MOBO with patio doors, in mitigation I would like to say that I have owned and raced dingies around Chichester Harbour for 20 years, have a Costal skipper (Raggie Version) and have owned a Westerly GK24.

There is a major misconception by a couple of the posters on this thread. Namely the depth that we feel free to operate in. Yes if you have a deep fin keel you do need more water than I do, but I do draw about 1 meter 40.

I also have 2 very expensive propellors and shafts as well as rudders down at this point, touch and bend them and I now have no control anymore, I going to need a tow, lift out and expensive repairs, not good seamenship! Given that your never quite sure if there is an isolated rock or an old shopping trolley on the bottom, I get very twichy when there is less than 2 meters of water

There are many sailing vessels with bilge keels or Centerboards which are quite happy in less than 2 meters (and I am wise enough to be able to spot a good proportion of them) so don't assume that the MOBO will be happy to go drifting around in the shallows in order that you can hold your tack for another couple of lengths in the slack tide along the edge of a channel.

The other thing that I wasn't aware of before owning one is what happens in a good breeze at 0 knots. Yes we all expect that the MOBO will drift to leeward (lots of windage and no keel) but think of my shape, relatively low windage at the bow and lots at the stern. This gives the same effect as letting go out the tiller and sheeting in the main with no jib / genoa set, she will turn in the wind, so if the wind is in the wrong direction I suddenly find myself at some angle to the channel rather than facing down it, thereby presenting a large target which should be flying "Manourving with difficulty" to anyone else proceeding in either direction. My reading of the Col Regs is that if I did signal this is my situation it overides the Steam gives way to Sail rules anyway.

There are without doubt some MOBO owners who shouldn't be let loose from their pontoons, but Sailors who don't even try to think about the issues that the other Skipper will face due to their (in)actions are just as culpable. Surely good seamenship is that, if you are in a restricted channel and therefore likely to have to tack to avoid going aground and there are a lot of other vessels manovering in the same area TURN ON YOUR ENGINE (and if you really want to shock the MOBOs and get a picture of you yacht on the Motorboat chat forum with lots of complements put up your motorsailing cone!)

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[bedouin]

Absolutely - the ultimate imperative on all vessels is to avoid collision.

However as has been pointed out before, if a yacht tacking causes a powered vessel to do a crash stop (in the absence of other constraints) then the powered vessel was clearly not obeying the requirement to "Keep Well Clear" let alone the requirement to take "due regard to all dangers of navigation" i.e. that which caused the sailing vessel to tack in the first place.

The whole premise of the yacht tacking and creating danger for the MoBo is based on your tacit assumption that the MoBo itself is ignoring its duties.

Where situations get complicated, and genuinely dangerous, is where one party fails to realise the restrictions on the actions of the other.

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[bedouin]

Not all sailing boats have engines!

Other than that I agree - it is clearly bad seamanship for a yacht to insist on tacking up a narrow channel when they could equally well motor and tacking would cause disproportionate incovenience or risk to other boats.

However another boat's bad seamanship does not relieve you of your obligation under Colregs. If a sailing boat is tacking in a narrow channel then colregs requires a power vessel to keep well clear.

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[KevB]

Talking twaddle

"However as has been pointed out before, if a yacht tacking causes a powered vessel to do a crash stop (in the absence of other constraints) then the powered vessel was clearly not obeying the requirement to "Keep Well Clear" let alone the requirement to take "due regard to all dangers of navigation" i.e. that which caused the sailing vessel to tack in the first place." COBBLERS/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif


How can a Mobo stay far enough from all sail boats so as not to be put in this position by at least one of them tacking?? It amazes me that your answer to this is that all mobo's are in the wrong if they are that close. Very often there are no options but to rely on the good seamanship of others, sometimes the "others" let you down!!




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