Colregs -- a question of interpretation?

[DAKA]

AIS certainly makes it clear to you which ship you are looking at, including his speed and course etc. Unless you're transmitting AIS, you still have to make sure the ship is looking at you, not another ship. He could of course mistake another ship for you, change course for him, and be heading for you.

But definitely a good tool to have onboard though. Very, very easy to keep an eye on all the commercial stuff and particularly useful in busy areas or poor vis.

Should be on the top of DAKA's "to buy" list.

I think you have the most difficult task off Ipswich, you have no idea where the ships are going, thames, europort,humber inner channel, Newcastle to name just a few completely different headings.

The English channel is is much easier, going from 1 TSS to another TSS.

Agreed I could call one up on the VHF but it wouldnt really help, even if he confirmed his plan to go past my stern @ 1/2 nm , I still wouldnt consider it safe and I would still aim for the safe zone (one decisive turn of 90 degrees) message sent , he cant mix my up with the other dozen white mobos @ 25 knots all heading south that I cant even see.

 

[MapisM]

I used to be of the turn to port school many years ago on basis that, executed well, the risk of collision might be deemed not to exist. Which isn't exactly kosher ColReg action but seemed to make sense. That was until, as I did it one day, a ship I was trying to avoid took a very obvious lurch to starboard

Just out of curiosity, were you on a sailboat or a mobo, in that occasion?
I know it shouldn't make a difference, but even if I've cruised on sailboats probably less that 1/100th of the hours cruised with mobos, the one and only occasion when I've seen a commercial ship giving way was while sailing.
And even then, it was actually a small(ish) ferry.

 

[Elessar]

I think you have the most difficult task off Ipswich, you have no idea where the ships are going, thames, europort,humber inner channel, Newcastle to name just a few completely different headings.

The English channel is is much easier, going from 1 TSS to another TSS.

Agreed I could call one up on the VHF but it wouldnt really help, even if he confirmed his plan to go past my stern @ 1/2 nm , I still wouldnt consider it safe and I would still aim for the safe zone (one decisive turn of 90 degrees) message sent , he cant mix my up with the other dozen white mobos @ 25 knots all heading south that I cant even see.

"I am the target bearing 225 degrees 4 miles"

unambiguous.

even easier if you are transmitting, granted.

But a receiver is only 100 quid.

 

[Elessar]

Just out of curiosity, were you on a sailboat or a mobo, in that occasion?
I know it shouldn't make a difference, but even if I've cruised on sailboats probably less that 1/100th of the hours cruised with mobos, the one and only occasion when I've seen a commercial ship giving way was while sailing.
And even then, it was actually a small(ish) ferry.

They give way to both. Definitely.

 

[piratos]

One from the real world

You are driving a 12m motor cruiser in open water, at about 25 knots, and you see a ship approaching from your port side. By the time the range has reduced to about 4 miles, you are concerned that there is a risk of collision.

Based on other recent threads, it seems that many people would alter course a few degrees to port (I guess somewhere between 5 and 50 degrees).

Can someone please offer an interpretation of Rule 17 that makes altering course to port to avoid a give way vessel legitimate? Here is the rule. I've highlighted the bits that I see as being an issue in this case.

Just back from a few weeks cruise I will give you “One from the real world”

I came from the Kiel Canal and headed for the Great Belt. South of Langeland I notice a ship (Tanker of aprox 50.000 DWT) on my starboard side also heading for the South of Langeland, and possibly (?) turning north into the Great Belt as well. I was the give away vessel, but was also struggling with strong wind and sea from aft. My speed was aprox 9 knots and the tanker on my starboard side doing aprox 12-13 knots.

As I close in to south end of Langeland I notice a vessel coming from the North in route DW, and although she is in route DW she is with her size/draft not restricted to route DW. Facts are : I am the stand on vessel to the vessel is route DW (but he cannot turn to starboard as he might run aground). I am the give away vessel to the tanker in route H.

Turning to starboard would bring me under the bow of the tanker on my starboard side. Stopping or just slowing down is difficult, and might even be dangerous in this weather (strong wind and sea from aft)

A small turn to port going aft of the vessel in Route DW would clear the situation (in Rule 17 C it does say “ if the circumstances of the case admit,“) – I believe that turning to port is legitimate in this case, as I would otherwise risk the collision with the Tanker - ??

Some of you may not be familiar with this area, but Route DW is for vessel s of more than 12 m and less than 19 m draft. Route H is for vessels up to 12 m draft.

It has been said here, that big ships do give way to both MoBos and Sailing boats. As we came close enough it appeared that we would pass just 50 aft of the vessel in the DW route, which by the way shortly afterwards turned to starboard and headed for the Kiel Canal.

Now the tanker coming on my starboard side in route H turned to starboard which would let him enter the DW route some 4-6 miles further north of the actual entrance to route DW, but from being a stand on vessel he was now abaft of my beam and overtaking me, and should have kept clear of me. At the point where a collision would have taken place it would have been exactly between route DW and route H. The Tanker did absolutely nothing to avoid a collision. In spite of the big following sea I slowed down as much as possible, letting him pass in front of me.

Nothing is really black and white. The Colregs are supposed to work without VHF/AIS. But the vessel coming down south in the DW route was a Norwegian vsl of aprox 10.000 DWT and a draft of just 7m. She should not have been in route DW but in route H. IF she had been restricted with her draft to be in Route DW situation would have been different, but again the ‘professional’ officer on the bridge might have thought that being in route DW he was not to take any action to a MoBo! The Tanker acted as if we where not there at all.

When I headed for the Great belt it was my intention to turn port south of Langeland and stay west of the DW route until I could pass the route DW and route H without interfering with the big ships (same as passing a traffic separation) and in any case I would have turned to port early giving the Norwegian ship room. Only reason I did stand on was to see whether you are right.

Tim, you may be right there is no excuse for turning to port, and all of us turning to port may be idiots, but at least we are still alive.