Collision, who pays?

[KellysEye]

>After what we seen over the years I very surprise there isn't more serious damage .or maybe they are and we just not seen them .

We chartered two or three times a year in places ranging from the Seychelles, most of the Turkish coast, the mount Athos peninsulas to the Peloppones in Greece, Corsica and Sardinia, Malta, Balearics, the Caribbean from Puerto Rico to Grenada to the Bahamas. We sailed most of those multiple times we only saw two boats damaged was the one I mentioned in Corfu and the other was in Antigua where a charter boat lost control in a strong crosswind leaving a pontoon and hit a cruising boat's bows on the opposite pontoon. This is why we never took out insurance just the refundable damage deposit, which we always got back.

 

[Tony Cross]

We've sailed in the med for 14 years, 9 of those years as owners. I now charter, does that make me and my wife monkeys??

I don't know, are you paid in peanuts?

 

[jacaldo]

��
Monkeys was in reference to the previous posters description of charterers, at the end of the day we are all capable of getting it wrong, the difference is how you deal with the situation, I've seen some dangerous manoeuvres by charterers and owners.

I don't know, are you paid in peanuts?

 

[sailaboutvic]

You seem very confused. What are we talking about here - cars or charter boats?

Again get one thing clear. If you take responsibility for another person's property you are liable for any damage that occurs when it is within your care. Hire companies and charter operators insure their property against damage their hirers do up to the value of the asset, but just as with private insurance their insurers insist on an excess amount for each claim (and there may also be other exclusions). The cost of this insurance is normally included in the hire charge. The liability for the uninsured losses lies with the hirer.

As I have patiently explained, the hirer can carry this liability himself, but the operator normally requires a refundable deposit (or a credit card charge) equal to the uninsured loss. Or the hirer will offer an insurance policy to cover the potential uninsured loss for an additional charge.

Some people take the first option and get their deposit returned if there is no damage, others, perhaps more risk averse, pay the extra premium. Nothing unusual or illegal in such arrangements.

Trying to understand what sort of arrangement you are talking about and why you think it could be illegal. I suppose it is possible for a hire rate to exclude any insurance at all and the hirer has to pay for a premium to cover liability for the whole value. This would indeed be a significant additional sum to the hire charge - but not illegal. All that is doing is moving the insurance element of the hire company's costs from the hire rate to a separate charge. Probably not good marketing and not good value as, for obvious reasons an individual week's insurance policy is going to be more expensive than a share of an annual premium.

If a hire company says you have to pay for insurance as a separate item before you hire the car/boat as it is otherwise not insured at all, that is not illegal - how could it be? If on the other hand they advertised a rate that said insurance was included and then attempted to charge a compulsory extra without advising beforehand you may well have a case for misrepresentation. However, if they were upfront and said their rates did not include insurance for losses not covered by their insurance, and an additional premium was required as a condition of the hire, this would still not be illegal - but as I said probably not very good marketing.

Perhaps you are confusing the well known practice of hire companies pressurising clients to buy additional insurance at point of collection with dire warnings of the potential consequences of not doing so. This is indeed bad practice, but not necessarily illegal - and as I pointed out earlier, the dire consequences can indeed be very real when you get home from your holiday abroad and find a charge on your credit card for damage they claimed you were responsible for and you face a long fight to get your money back.

This has gone a long way from the original thread. It does not take much effort to find out what the situation is with regard to insurance when you charter a boat - just ask the operator. When I chartered my boat out in the Med, the manager made sure that clients knew what to expect and the options with respect to my potential uninsured losses. The client either had to buy the waiver policy or leave a deposit equal to the excess before he could take the boat. Either way the client knew he would not get any additional claims against him (or would get his deposit back if no damage) and the manager and I knew that all minor damage could be repaired without resorting to a major insurance claim.

There are the damage that you know bout , how many time do charter hit boats that are moored without the owners on board and don't report them , how many time do they lift other anchors and then roar off without doing some thing to save the boat hitting the quay or worst drifting off . These are the times you don't know about . Sorry mate but we been on the end of this type of damage not once but four times now , and not once have we manged to get the charter company to except respondablity , althought each time we had witness , only twice both British run company paid up and only once they received summons , the other greek company's wasn't interested and we would had been wasting more money trying to sue them in a greek court .
As report on here just a few weeks ago a charter boat dragged and hit a private boat over night causing quite a lot of damage , early in the morning the charter boat went off very quietly before exchanging details . Did that boat report the damages when he got back ? Some how I don't think so ,

 

[sailaboutvic]

��
Monkeys was in reference to the previous posters description of charterers, at the end of the day we are all capable of getting it wrong, the difference is how you deal with the situation, I've seen some dangerous manoeuvres by charterers and owners.

To answer your question , any one who charter a boat with out having the experance to handle that size boat , yes is. Monkey , off couse we ll get it wrong some time , but at less with experances there a good chance you will correct the problem or have at less. Change of correcting it before ny rely damage is done

 

[Tranona]

There are the damage that you know bout , how many time do charter hit boats that are moored without the owners on board and don't report them , how many time do they lift other anchors and then roar off without doing some thing to save the boat hitting the quay or worst drifting off . These are the times you don't know about . Sorry mate but we been on the end of this type of damage not once but four times now , and not once have we manged to get the charter company to except respondablity , althought each time we had witness , only twice both British run company paid up and only once they received summons , the other greek company's wasn't interested and we would had been wasting more money trying to sue them in a greek court .
As report on here just a few weeks ago a charter boat dragged and hit a private boat over night causing quite a lot of damage , early in the morning the charter boat went off very quietly before exchanging details . Did that boat report the damages when he got back ? Some how I don't think so ,

The original question was who is responsible in a collision and it is logically one or other of parties involved. However, even leaving aside the problems actually deciding which one, there is always the problem of seeking recompense for any damage. If the perpetrator leaves without acknowledging the fact it becomes more difficult. Insurance helps alleviate such problems, but it is not the complete answer.

This is not a problem unique to Greek harbours and charter boats and the only way of avoiding the risk is not to go there. You will find exactly the same discussion here from time to time about the antics of other boat users (including both charterers and private owners) in other parts of the world, just as you get such disputes about careless parking in supermarket car parks.

Of course it is annoying, but it is just part of people living together in congested environments and sometimes treading on other peoples' toes.

 

[Norman_E]

Out here in Turkey the problem is the growing size of charter yachts. The smaller yachts are generally chartered by couples or families, and in general they seem to be both reasonably capable and considerate of others. There are however growing numbers of fifty foot plus yachts being chartered by groups of men, who are frequently just out on a drinking holiday and have little or no capability or consideration for others.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Out here in Turkey the problem is the growing size of charter yachts. The smaller yachts are generally chartered by couples or families, and in general they seem to be both reasonably capable and considerate of others. There are however growing numbers of fifty foot plus yachts being chartered by groups of men, who are frequently just out on a drinking holiday and have little or no capability or consideration for others.

Funny you should say that Norman , we was only commenting on that the other day , the biggest we seen is 62 foot with 10 guys

 

[maxy]

If (as it is in some car hire) the extra payment were to cover the excess that would be fine. But that is not the way it works in some cases.

If you don't pay the premium then some hirers say you are liable for the full damage to the vessel (even though most of it is already covered by the insurance you have already contributed to).

I can't speak for the whole industry, but I can speak for our operation, and I believe the OP has it right. The 'Damage Waiver' is to cover the cost of the excess, which in our case varies from €2000-€2500 depending on the size and value of the yacht.

Many charterers return having only broken a glass or two and are effectively paying for those who are less fortunate. Last year for example we had a drop down transom badly damaged after the charterers used it as a passarelle, despite being briefed not to. Another managed to get a rope around the prop, which rotating at 2000rpm ripped out the engine mounts and caused the yacht to take on water. In the first case the repair cost was €1000 and the second almost €2000.

yes, we aim to end up with a surplus, but we also take the risk. The key reason for the scheme is so the client can walk away, without having a confrontation of blame and extra cost on the last day of a great holiday. Few can afford an additional €2000 unplanned add on to their charter.

The proof in the pudding is 'would you return to charter company who took €1000 from you for some damage'? Well the charter who damaged the transom (who had paid the waiver) came back on the same yacht the following year (and he didn't damage it again). Happy customer, happy charter company.

We no longer offer a 'normal deposit' but it is shown as an additional cost or else we appear more expensive than our competiton.

 

[maxy]

Do you not think the reason that insurance is expense is because insurers know that charter company don't really care who or what experiences the people they charter out too and the risk of damage to the hire boat let alone to other people boat is high . -------
-------
Charter company really need to be more responsible to who they hire to and not take the view , the boat covered so what .

I have to take exception to these generalisations which make yacht charter no better than dodgy car dealers. Maybe its true of some charter companies, perhaps the larger ones where the base staff never meet the owners.

As an operator there is a flip side to this view.

Any business that takes an irresponsible approach to risk will end up paying ever higher premiums or simply be refused insurance, and hence go out of business.

We do take the checking of clients certificates very seriously. These are owner's yachts we are responsible for. We find the better a condition the yacht is presented in, the more respect and care charterers give to the yachts they charter.

We occasionally get potential clients who try to deceive us with mickey mouse credentials. Sadly some of these 'certificates' are provided by the charter agents (and some large and well known ones to, you know who you are) as they have no financial liability to the yacht or operator, the commission is their primary interest. Some are people know they don't have adequate certification and hope you wont look. We had one last week where the client from the USA booked and then offered just their log book as certification, and on checking they had undertaken a series non certificated courses from a caribbean recognised school. When pressed for the proper certificate they cancelled the charter. We know they then went to an international operator who would accept their booking, having used them before.

Where was the profit in that for us? Of course there wasn't any, but what else won't we get?

1.We won't have any angry claims from third parties following an almost inevitable accident.
2.We won't have any damage to hurriedly and maybe inadequately fix before the next charter.
3.We won't have a dishonest charterer concealing damage that we subsequently discover to our (not the owner's) cost.
4.We wont have a dissatisfied client who complains on forums such as this about how he was unfairly charged for some 'nominal' problem.
5.Nobody will get injured or killed.
6.We won't loose any sleep worrying about a yacht on charter.
7. Our reputation won't get tarnished unfairly.

The motor trade get criticised for selling dodgy cars, but they are not the ones who drive them into the ground and then trade them in to some poor unsuspecting subsequent buyer. Yachts do not get damaged sitting in the marina, only out on charter. Charter companies don't sail yachts.

Good charter companies do take their work seriously, it is in their own best interests to do so for the reasons above.

Kevin

 

[ronsurf]

I'm chartering a yacht for the first time in Greece in July (I own a boat in the UK) - what's recommended, the deposit or the damage waiver? The deposit is 2000 Euro on my credit card. Is there any evidence of the boat being signed off undamaged then having your card charged once you're back in the UK? I've had this from car hire companies in Spain, and from hotels in the UK.

 

[Tranona]

You may not be offered damage waiver insurance. When you return the boat make sure you go over it with the manager in person and get your deposit returned there and then if you can together with some written evidence that there is no damage.

 

[sailaboutvic]

SIR .
I sorry you took exception to my view , and you sound as if you may run a good company but the fact is there are many people who are chartering yacht which are much to big for them with little and in some case no experience .
If I may be bold to rises a few points

I have to take exception to these generalisations which make yacht charter no better than dodgy car dealers.

{Any business that takes an irresponsible approach to risk will end up paying ever higher premiums or simply be refused insurance, and hence go out of business.}

Most of the time would you not agree the insurance company wouldn't be notify of any damage because the client would have paid for it him self out of the deposit held by the charter company so the insure would be no wiser .

I
We do take the checking of clients certificates very seriously. These are owner's yachts we are responsible for. We find the better a condition the yacht is presented in, the more respect and care charterers give to the yachts they charter. }

Has an ex instructor I can assure you just because some one happens to have an ICC doesn't. Mean he has the experience to handle a 40 and in some cases 50 foot boat ,
It not at all difficult to get an ICC has I am sure you well know . now we have a case where the following week the same guy is let loose with a 10 / 14 ton boat , Mmmm not a good idea .

I
{. 6.We won't loose any sleep worrying about a yacht on charter }

Your comment ,

(6.We won't loose any sleep worrying about a yacht on charter.)

I guess you won't , you just leave it to the rest of us who have to deal with the mayhem some charter get them self into .
There are plenty of very capable people out there who charter yacht and can handle them very well who manage to have a good time without getting them self into any problems , but there also many who have chartered yacht much to big for them to handle when things goes wrong .

This is what I take exception off ....

People damaging my property putting my property at risk and at time my life , it no fun waken up in the middle of the night and finding the yacht which has been warned his too close to you and his anchor wasn't hold warped around my anchor chain and dragging me onto the rock with him . And after managing to stop us both from ended up on the rock and saving the charter yacht ,the charter company had the audacity to refuse our claim for damages , it also came to light that the skipper of the yacht only ever sailed dinghy and held his ICC for month , he also lose some of the deposit for damage to their yacht .

Here a good example , Photo enclosed take over an hour ago ,
we are moored back to rocks , depth here is 20 mts until your close to the shore , along come a charter boat , I sure you can guess which company , maybe its one of your ? he drop maybe 30 mts of chain and done nothing else , his one and a half boat away from us and swinging freely , as the light breezes blows him round his stern is no more then 8 mts away , he been told he hasn't got enough chain there no way his anchor holding and he also need to tie back like every one else , and not just by me , one hour later , he still not moved or dropped more chain , his reply to me was " it fine if I was too close I would had hit you by now "
This is the type of thing we and other have to deal with .
My only hope is that a lead boat will coming and move him before the winds pick up like it forecaster to do other wise it mean we will have to .

I will leave you with this comment from a well known operator when asked if he worried about the boat on charter being chartered by novices , his reply " they are insured " I think that's says it all .

 

[maxy]

SIR .
I sorry you took exception to my view , and you sound as if you may run a good company but the fact is there are many people who are chartering yacht which are much to big for them with little and in some case no experience .
If I may be bold to rises a few points .

I don't take exception to your views, they are yours. What I said was, I take exception to your generalisations. Broadly I agree with you, no one with any pride wants to damage a yacht or have their's damaged. I also said I can't speak for the industry just our operation.

I too am an ex RYA instructor, and have agonised over many pass/fail decisions. You know that after the student passes the course, having met the required standard, it might be another 50 weeks before they sail again. This is why we also ask for logbooks or try to speak to them on the phone, to get a 'feel' for their true expertise. As I said we had one very recently bail in embarrassment when they couldn't provide the paperwork. We also know who they subsequently booked through, who we are told simply require a valid credit card.

You are correct, there are many people who charter way beyond their capabilities. In part I blame the certification system for allowing people to believe once they have the 'paper' they can successfully achieve whatever it says on the certificate. Experienced yachtsmen, especially those who have learnt their craft from dinghies up know that's rubbish.

As we all know with the driving test, passing it is just the first stage, experience must then follow. The problem with chartering is that many are just holiday makers who sail for just one or two weeks a year. You couldn't reasonably expect them to become as proficient as those who live aboard throughout the summer. Sadly not all live-aboards are as proficient as could be desired either. Our yachts have been damaged by non charter third party yachts, some who deny any liability and refuse to give their details, the world is not a perfectly honourable place.


You have a choice too. You say you and others had warned the yacht and he had presumably ignored you. If you could see what was likely to happen you could have moved your yacht and avoided the whole situation. Maybe your decision to stay or go should be made with reference to the charter company logo. If you know they are a problem move on. Perhaps sailing in an area not frequented by charter yachts is also a possibility. Charter yachts only reside in commercially fruitful areas, which are not always the best or most beautiful sailing areas.

Until a better system comes along it's all we have to work with. Its better than nothing at all, when reasonably applied. With the benefit of your experience, what system would you suggest to avoid these problems?

Kevin

 

[sailaboutvic]

Until a better system comes along it's all we have to work with. Its better than nothing at all, when reasonably applied. With the benefit of your experience, what system would you suggest to avoid these problems?

Well one thing you could do is to take them out for a few hours if your not 100% happy they are capable in handling these big boats give them some thing smaller or cancel the charter , let's face it If they told you a pack of lies their are in beach of contract and you have every right to cancel the contract you might be Saving the owner yacht from total disaster after all you are responsible for the boats in your care .
Has an ex RYA instructor you would be able to tell in a very sort time if they where capable in handling the size yacht and what their capability are ,
we not talking about in open waters put it in forwards put it in Rev very good off you go , but I guess that takes time and money and in the end of the day even if they wasn't capable , what is a charter company to do , ? Send them home and refund their money , I guess there not many that will .

You suggested that if I or anyone else isn't happy with the way a charter yacht skipper or anyone else come to that , that anchors in such a way that may cause damage to us that we have the option to move , well there been time when we have , but why should some one who been anchor for a while or maybe some days have to move , just because an charter company haven't done their job properly and have let very inexperience skipper charter a yacht their are not capable to handle , I using the term inexperience because for any skipper who can't tell when he his too close to another boat or not having the simple technique of how to lay an anchor in my view is very inexperience no matter what bits of paper his has to hand .
Off couse the comments above don't apply to you or your company , has you said you do every thing to make sure your charter are experience and capable .
Let hope I or anyone else never have to remains you of this posting .

 

[nickd]

Hi
I would go with the additional damage waiver insurance everytime. I have done maybe 20 charters in Med, many with other families, it makes it so much more relaxing to know you have paid the 100euro and thats it. We have never in that time actually caused any damge to the charter boat but we have had on occasion been damaged by others or found that we had inherited damage from previous charters in all cases we have given full reports of all problems found, for which the charter companies have at least appeared grateful and we can leave the boat with a clear conscience that we have done our best to improve the following charters' comfort and safety, and that come what may we will not have to pay any further money.
I have often wondered why is it not compulsory as it would then encouarge people to be more honest as they would have nothing to lose.

 

[Melody]

We regularly charter yachts for our ex-students. We use reputable charter companies and we've never had a problem with anyone being charged for loss or damage that they didn't do.

If the charter company offers a non-refundable damage waiver rather than a refundable security deposit I always suggest the clients take that. The reason is tied to the OP's question. If your boat is damaged by another, your charter company is entitled to hold on to your refundable security deposit until it is all sorted out. If the yacht responsible for the damage denies it and it isn't reported to the Port Police, the cost of the repair will be taken from your security deposit. With a damage waiver, no matter how big or small the problem, that's all you'll pay.

In the event of damage you should ALWAYS get as much detail as you can about the other boat - its name, registration number, any charter company name or flag and, if possible, the name of the skipper. Make a report at the nearest PP station. They will normally contact the charter company who won't release the charterer's deposit. The two charter companies will normally sort it out between them.

Having been in the industry for many years now I have a much better idea of what is involved in charter insurance. It is a different world to insuring private yachts. Probably 20% of charters come back with some loss or damage. Often it's only missing winch handles or fenders but broken nav lights and scratches on the GRP are very common too.

It's been said that your charter fee covers a % of the insurance but the companies take the attitude that the charterers who cause damage should pay for what they do rather than spread the burden so that careful sailors get charged just as much. Most charter companies send a diver down to examine the hull and propellor when you return a boat and this is also included in the charter fee. If you are in a hurry to leave at the end of your charter, a non-refundable waiver helps here too, as you won't have to wait for the underwater inspection before you can go.

The problem is the few charters where the boat is severely damaged. I don't know what % this is but it happens to several boats each season. I've seen two yachts where the keel has been almost ripped off (and the charterers denied knowing anything about it). I've also seen two that had a 'head on' collision and I've witnessed several instances where a yacht has ended up being blown sideways on to several others, causing damage to all of them. This happened to one of our boats many years ago as well. I must stress NONE of these were with our former students

Not only does the owner have to pay for the repair but they will lose money on lost bookings as the yacht could be out of commission for a few weeks while the insurance company inspects her and the repair is done. Yacht insurance doesn't cover loss of income.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Thanks for that detail info that you given anyone who wishes to charter Melody , here is my question , how do a charter know that a keel hasn't been damage from a previous charter , I mean do you have photo with date and time of the keel to show a new charter that the keel is in good order or is it just the case the charter has to take the company word for it , why I ask the question , some years back in Athen we was on the charter quay waiting for an repair to be done by an very well known charter company , big company yacht all over the place , any way why we was there a yacht had just returned and just as you said a dive when done which I tho was strange , the out come there was damage to the boat , the charter denial they hit any thing , don't know what the out come was , but the yacht went out the next day with a new charter , we was there when the charter returned a week late and the same happen , it only when we told the family what had happen the week before and offed to be a witness that the charter company backed down , I have to wonder have many times that has happened .
So back to my question do they have photos with date and time to shown the next charter that all is well down below .

 

[Melody]

In the two instances I mentioned the yachts had been taken out of the water to be repaired once the damage was discovered and I saw them then. In one case the owner took me on board before the yacht was lifted. The keel had been hit so hard that some of the boards in the cabin sole had lifted and buckled.

I've never heard of a company doing what you say although I don't doubt it happened. There are crooks in every industry.

If the charterer is absolutely convinced that they did no damage I'd report this to the Port Police and ask for the yacht to be lifted so the damage could be inspected by an independent surveyor. Probably worth also reporting it to the Tourist Police.

There is quite an effective association of Greek Professional Yacht Owners and it might be worth reporting the company who did this to them. Their main role is to support owners in our dealings with the Ministry, Port Police etc. but they are also concerned about the good reputation of the industry.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Once again it good to read what a company has to say and please don't think my question was related towards your self , your comment just reminding me of that time .
I dont charter although I did once a very very long time ago and there wasn't many company about then and things was very different , but I would be concern , regarding any damage down below done by someone else if I chartered now .
Regarding waver insurance or returnable deposit personal as an owner and someone who had damage done to me by charters I would rather see charter company hold a large returnable deposit , the reason for this is , it is more likely a charter would take care and look after the charter yacht if he has some thing to lost , where if he paid for insurance which he not going to get back he has nothing to lost and is more careless .