Collision regs definition (high definition)

[l'escargot]

If you look back, you will see it was me that originally posted the link to that NTM. It applies purely to the Dockyard of Portsmouth, not the Solent, and nowhere does it say that the ship has right of way over smaller vessels.

I was also out that day and was within a couple of hundred yards of the ship myself on more than one occasion. It was not displaying two diamonds when I saw it, was outside of the Dockyard of Portsmouth and was not operating under the NTM. I would be very surprised if you could reproduce a photo of it displaying the diamonds. I am also suspicious of a new poster who joined after this thread started and also seems to be under the same misapprehensions as you so soon after joining. Despite your inferences I doubt whether there was any collision between the ship and Vela.

And what would be the significance of grey paint on the anchor?

Go on, post all this information and the other pictures you have - I wait with baited breath.

I really do worry sometimes with you haring round the Solent placing your own unique interpretation on so many rules and regs. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[DAKA]

Its like banging your head on a brick wall sometimes.......

I dont know the answer, I am interested.

If you read Brendns copy post or look on your chart 5600.3 you will see

the dockyard of Portsmouth has a boundary close to nab tower.

The dock yard is not confined to the bit near the spinnaker.


Diamond shapes

Im not confident, there certainly are two diamond shapes one on top of another BUT I dont know what they are, could be anything ?

I guess but I dont know
that the QHM calls the exclusion zone once a ship passes the nab on ch11 or 13 and that zone will most likely stay in force.
Even if they did cancel it who would listen to it on 11 or 13 ?

It is certain that Vela would have no idea of these regulations.

Agreed it is a bit odd that a new poster has joined but I can understand a regular of scuttlebutts not wanting to post in agreement with me.


Grey paint I expect is plentiful on Velas anchor , there was a scratch on the frigate after vela passed that was not visible before the incident.
Again I am only 99% certain on that which is why I would be interested to see a photo of the anchor.

Post more photos /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
strange but true my photos have been frozen, I can not add to my albums.

If you care to download the photo with vela at the stern and then one as vela is about to sail under the bow

look for a scratch 15 m long 1/3 from the front of the frigate at anchor height.

Surly if sailing in Dockyard of Portsmouth (solent for short) you should assume the 250 m zone is in place , especially if you have only been out an hour and the zone could have been called several hours previously.

Dont worry about my interpritation the rules are simple

Keep out the way of everyone and assume they are about to tack into me ( which they dont, I am just surprised to see boats sailing so close into danger)

 

[l'escargot]

Mmmm - a lot of uncertainty there and no more photos or information? Just have to draw my own conclusions from that won't I?

The western limit of the D of P is a line drawn from Castle Point west of Cowes to Hillhead so it doen't even constitute half of the Solent which goes all the way down to the Needles, a lot of it doesn't come under QHM or VTS:

 

[BrendanS]

That's the best 'map' of the limits I've seen to date! Going to save that one

 

[l'escargot]

Found it on the VTS site here - you can get a larger version as a pdf.

 

[wotayottie]

You've all missed the obvious answer. These days, the navy ship could have a lady driver. In which case normal rules definitely dont apply. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[tomdroyal1980]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a full summary report I can post if you want it

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to see that, and I'd like to know where the diamonds are. (and see a blown up shot of them.)

 

[DAKA]

Saturday 19th July 2008

In the main South shipping channel between Ryde and Cowes.

Three Yachts involved in a close encounter with a Frigate.
Yacht 1
Stands on and chooses not to follow the local Bylaw to keep 250 meters away from any Warship while in the Dockyard of Portsmouth*, this pushes the Frigate to the outside of the channel, but no real danger.

Yacht 2
Also stands on and pushes the Frigate to the extreme of the channel.

Yacht 3 ‘ Vela ‘
Remarkably also stands on , the Frigate has no where to go and sounds 6 blasts.

On blast 5 Vela lets fly (sails flapping), vela still makes headway with sails flapping toward the frigate.

All three yachts can be seen in this frame, two at a sensible distance but Vela is now without wind as she has sailed too close to the frigate.








On close up Vela can be seen still bow to the frigate behind yacht 2.

<span style="color:red"> on blow up, under a rope ladder you can see a scatch 15 m long at anchor height, the damage is not visable on previous photos </span>
There are numerous naval personnel now on deck, outside the bridge and along the decks.

This photograph shows a shadow projected on the Frigate from Vela’s fore sail.


It is only the skill of the Frigate captain that manages to avoid a catastrophe, by turning hard to starboard the frigates quarter is moved away from Vela, this manoeuvre is evident from the flat wash to the stern of the frigate that Vela manages to sail away from.

We went to the stern of the frigate ready to recover casualties which thankfully were avoided.


The Limit of the Dockyard of Portsmouth authority to the East is roughly Hayling Island to the Nab.
To the West as far as Cowes where the port of Southampton takes over.

Technical limit
on the east and south, a line from a point on the line of mean high-water springs at Eastney Point in latitude 50º 47’ 12” north longitude 01º 01’ 47” west on a true bearing of 120º for a distance of 2.50 nautical miles to a point in latitude 50º 45’ 57” north longitude 00º 58’ 22” west, thence on a true bearing of 187 1/2º for a distance of 7.83 nautical miles to a point in latitude 50º 38’ 12” north longitude 01º 00’00” west, thence on a true bearing of 270º for a distance of 6.40 nautical miles to a point on the line of mean high-water springs in Sandown Bay in latitude 50º 38’ 12” north longitude 01º 10’ 03” west;
on the south west, the line of mean high-water springs along the eastern and northern shores of the Isle of Wight from the aforementioned point in Sandown Bay to a point at Old Castle Point in latitude 50º 45’ 56.3” north longitude 01º 16’ 28.0” west with all bays, creeks, lakes, pools and rivers as far as the tide flows between those points except that between Bembridge Point and Old St. Helen’s Church the limit of the Dockyard Port shall be the outer limit of Bembridge Harbour;
on the west, a line from the aforementioned point at Old Castle Point on a true bearing of 000º for a distance of 0.14 nautical miles to a point in latitude 50º 46’ 04.7” north longitude 01º 16’ 28.0” west, thence on a true bearing of 022º for a distance of 3.15 nautical miles to a point on the line of mean high-water springs at Hillhead in latitude 50º 48’ 59.5” north longitude 01º 14’ 35.9” west; and
on the north, the line of mean high-water springs from the aforementioned point at Hillhead to the aforementioned point at Eastney Point in latitude 50º 47’ 12” north longitude 01º 01’ 47” west with all bays, creeks, lakes, pools and rivers as far as the tide flows between those points except that in Ports Creek the north east limit of the Dockyard Port shall be the western side of the railway bridge in approximately latitude 50º 50’ 00” north longitude 01º 03’ 10” west.


http://www.qhmportsmouth.com/port-lntm/?action=view&id=61

* The Author is not aware if the exclusion zone of 250 m was effected by VHF ch11 or ch13 as this could have been announced hours or days previously and remains in force until the ship leaves the Dockyard boundaries.
There are several Diamond shapes displayed one on top of another on the Starboard mast arm but it is not known if these were intended to effect the exclusion zone.


At high speeds large craft draw huge amounts of water for propulsion; this can pull a small boat in like a magnet. This is even more evident in a narrow channel where small boats can be sucked out of shallows into the channel.

 

[l'escargot]

There is no "local Bylaw to keep 250 meters away from any Warship while in the Dockyard of Portsmouth". Read the NTM it is far from that.

The ship is outside the D of P so any exclusion zone no longer applies even if it had been activated which it would appear not because:

1 It is not displaying two diamonds.

2 There are no escorting vessels

Southampton VTS have only to keep commercial shipping away from naval vessels operating under the NTM there is no mention of leisure craft.

That wash looks remarkably straight for a vessel that has just tuned "hard to starboard ".
And where are all the "numerous naval personnel now on deck?"

I am sure any collision would have been reported but I can't find any trace.

 

[DAKA]

We were on passage from Chichester to Cowes, this had to have occurred in Dockyard of Portsmouth.





You can download the photos and then blow them up.
3 men in black under the gun
one leaning over with a vhf
one on the stern with arms folded
4 running out of the bridge
5-8 inside the bridge looking out.

Anyway back to the original question
I am seeing my brother in law tomorrow and I will tell him that what we saw was all perfectly normal and yachts frequently sail up to large ships.

It had made me realise how daft I have been over the years as I have always given Yachts sailing or otherwise a wide berth so as not to bother them with my wash.

Now all this had made me realise that there is no need to worry anymore and that sailing boats are happy with in feet of massive ships and wash, there really is no need for me to divert from sailing boats, clearly 3-5 meters at 25 knots is safe and normal as long as I miss them /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif.

 

[Plomong]

DAKA,

Whatever may be your track record on these fora, whatever others may say, whatever the byelaws, NTM or whatever say, I can only conclude:

A) The yacht that crossed close astern of the frigate did not obey the Colregs. When collision was imminent, it was obliged to do something to avoid such collision. End of story. Has nothing to do with channels, QHM, Port or not port rules. When the risk of collision became a collision situation, the yacht was obliged to act, whether or not the frigate had, was or was about to act. End of story.

B) Yes, the frigate would appear to be turning to starboard in the final photograph, or at least have quite a bit of rudder on, with maybe a touch of gas also?? Check the angle of the propellor wake with respect to the fore and aft line of the ship.

C) If the frigate was navigating within the confines of a channel which, FOR THAT VESSEL, was narrow or confining, a sailing vessel (or if under motor and less than 20m LOA) must not impede her progress in any way. Thus, in the first photograph the yacht that appears to be trying to cut across the bows of the frigate should have already taken some action to not impede the progress of the frigate. It doesn't matter whether the vessel in the channel is a frigate, a supertanker, a lowly old coaster or a small fishing vessel, nor does it matter whether an exclusion zone is in effect because she is a warship, nor is it relevant that the channel is within the limits of the Port of Portsmouth. What IS relevant is that Colregs say .... and the sailing vessel is not complying. End of story. (See rules 9b and 9d).

My only questions relating to this incident are:
1) Did the frigate report the incident in any way (MAIB or other)?
2) Did the yacht in question take any steps of a similar kind?
3) Did you, DAKA, take any steps to make your photographs available to any such authority, or make it known to them that you were a witness to the incident?

 

[tomdroyal1980]

[ QUOTE ]

A) The yacht that crossed close astern of the frigate did not obey the Colregs. When collision was imminent, it was obliged to do something to avoid such collision. End of story. Has nothing to do with channels, QHM, Port or not port rules. When the risk of collision became a collision situation, the yacht was obliged to act, whether or not the frigate had, was or was about to act. End of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is there any evidence that there was a collision?


[ QUOTE ]
B) Yes, the frigate would appear to be turning to starboard in the final photograph,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd agree.

[ QUOTE ]
C) If the frigate was navigating within the confines of a channel which, FOR THAT VESSEL, was narrow or confining, a sailing vessel (or if under motor and less than 20m LOA) must not impede her progress in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that in seperation zones?

[ QUOTE ]
My only questions relating to this incident are:
1) Did the frigate report the incident in any way (MAIB or other)?
2) Did the yacht in question take any steps of a similar kind?
3) Did you, DAKA, take any steps to make your photographs available to any such authority, or make it known to them that you were a witness to the incident?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder that too.

Let's not forget that the yacht could easily have tacked to get the hell out of the way. Which is pretty strong evidence that this wasn't actually that close. They were hardly going deliberately sail into the side of a ship!

 

[l'escargot]

Bottom line - DAKA has some foreshortened photos that could provoke some controvery.

Do they?

I think not.

 

[Plomong]

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't that in seperation zones?

[/ QUOTE ]

No -- see rules 9b and 9d.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there any evidence that there was a collision?

[/ QUOTE ]

DAKA says that the yacht's anchor scratched the hull of the frigate and that the scratch is visible in one of the photos. I can only take his word for it, as the definition of the compressed jpg file does not allow zooming in to check this detail. As DAKA was a witness, I can only take his word for it, absent any comment from the yacht or the frigate (hence my questions!!!!)

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget that the yacht could easily have tacked to get the hell out of the way. Which is pretty strong evidence that this wasn't actually that close. They were hardly going deliberately sail into the side of a ship!

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen inexperienced skippers lose control under such conditions, or wrongly apply the colregs requirement to stand on. I've seen a ship in confined waters (for her) apply emergency full astern to avoid hitting a sailing boat that sailed right across her bow. The ship wound up at some 40 degrees to her intended course, stopped in the water. The prat who caused the incident just continued on his way without any visible reaction. I may be mistaken, but he may have thought that the ship's reaction was in accordance with colregs, but not in my opinion.

 

[DAKA]

Thank you for taking my word for it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have always posted to my best belief at the time ( April 1st excluded /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

This photo is a blow up of 3 yachts in a line, some extrusions on the frigate can be seen where the aluminium sheets are welded on.

The photo under here is taken from Vela hidden behind yacht 2 (1756L )
I think there was an impact between F and the chain that runs at an angle down the Frigate.

This scratch is light in colour as the top paint has been removed and there is a dent, not a protrusion as the earlier photo, the impact seams to be just under the welded sheets.

Both these can be seen much easier on the full size blow up but then you wouldn't see where the area is, to give you an idea of clarity each individual chain link can be seen.


As to reporting it , I did that on here.

 

[DAKA]

Just in the interests of completeness , last week by fluke I was berthed very close to Vela, I went to study the bow .
You will see the Grey paint on the bow rail.

I can not prove the grey paint is from the Frigate.
I can not be certain there is not more than one boat called Vela in the Solent.

In my opinion there was a collision.

 

[alant]

Re: Collision regs definition (high definition)

I think it was Racing, even winning as he didnt want to loose ground, I would have been full astern !

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flying his Ensign, so unlikely to be racing!

 

[alant]

Re: Collision regs definition (high definition)

The ship was probably outside of the Portsmouth Dockyard when the photo was taken - more central Solent by the looks of it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Still in waters controlled by Portsmouth QHM though.

 

[flaming]

Whilst I always try to take what people say at face value, I'm struggling with the concept of a collision between a many thousand tonne ship, and a yacht of a few tons merely resulting in a small amount of paint on a rail.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Err yes. In circumstances too embarrassing to mention I once hit something hard, though not large, and stationary with the bow of a 34' yacht. The pulpit ended up resembling stainless steel spaghetti.