BrendanS
Well-Known Member
Why not just say exactly where it was, and we can give by-laws etc that are relevant, instead of trying to guess? If there are no local regulations for that area, it can also be pointed out.
Collision regs definition (high definition)
- Thread starter DAKA
- Start date
Sixpence
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Can't believe I'm posting on this
[/ QUOTE ]
No, neither can I /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The RN may well have been on the end of quite a few cut backs but they would IMHO always operate a full and proper watch.
You do realise that you've got me posting on one of these now ? /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Can't believe I'm posting on this
[/ QUOTE ]
No, neither can I /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The RN may well have been on the end of quite a few cut backs but they would IMHO always operate a full and proper watch.
You do realise that you've got me posting on one of these now ? /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
pennycar9
Well-Known Member
Bye Law 1(b) comes to mind "might is right and in any case he has got a gunand the yacht hasnt.
By the way, Collision regs or not, on the face of it I consider the yacht skipper to be a total P--t in this instance
By the way, Collision regs or not, on the face of it I consider the yacht skipper to be a total P--t in this instance
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As a visitor to the area it amazes me that the locals cant agree on a simple fact
Is there any situation where any boat under sail or power sub 20 m should stand on in front of a Frigate .
[/ QUOTE ] DAKA, I seem to recall that you've tried this argument before and the point you are trying to make is illinformed and shows a misunderstanding of IRPCS.
None of your polling options are right in all cases. I have no idea what you mean by a 'simple fact' unless you refer to the 'simple facts' of the IRPCS? Even these aren't simple, because what counts as 'close' isn't defined (and rightly so!).
There are times when a vessel should stand on and times when a vessel should give way. The size of the vessel is only relevant when in confined waters. Standing on and passing close ahead of another vessel is never sensible, whether you are the 'stand on' vessel or not. This doesn't mean that small vessels shouldn't stand on (when appropriate) and assess the situation when in open waters.
The warship officer of the watch does a written exam on the IRPCS every month. He/she is expected to know them in detail and almost verbatim. More importantly he/she will try to apply them in a seamanlike and sensible way. It makes life much more difficult when small craft behave erratically.
Be sensible, but obey the IRPCS and local byelaws.
As a visitor to the area it amazes me that the locals cant agree on a simple fact
Is there any situation where any boat under sail or power sub 20 m should stand on in front of a Frigate .
[/ QUOTE ] DAKA, I seem to recall that you've tried this argument before and the point you are trying to make is illinformed and shows a misunderstanding of IRPCS.
None of your polling options are right in all cases. I have no idea what you mean by a 'simple fact' unless you refer to the 'simple facts' of the IRPCS? Even these aren't simple, because what counts as 'close' isn't defined (and rightly so!).
There are times when a vessel should stand on and times when a vessel should give way. The size of the vessel is only relevant when in confined waters. Standing on and passing close ahead of another vessel is never sensible, whether you are the 'stand on' vessel or not. This doesn't mean that small vessels shouldn't stand on (when appropriate) and assess the situation when in open waters.
The warship officer of the watch does a written exam on the IRPCS every month. He/she is expected to know them in detail and almost verbatim. More importantly he/she will try to apply them in a seamanlike and sensible way. It makes life much more difficult when small craft behave erratically.
Be sensible, but obey the IRPCS and local byelaws.
tomdroyal1980
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
As a visitor to the area it amazes me that the locals cant agree on a simple fact
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't agree? I think there is almost total agreement with only one person who claims to be aware of any special exclusion zone that could have applied to this ship in this location.
Are you suggesting that when somebody claiming to be an authority on sailing states some legislation that applies to the area we sail in that we should ignore him without giving him the chance to quote the legislation he's refering to?
Standing on in front of a Frigate: stupid. Sailing round the transom of a Frigate (as this yacht did): No probs, no matter how close.
As a visitor to the area it amazes me that the locals cant agree on a simple fact
[/ QUOTE ]
Can't agree? I think there is almost total agreement with only one person who claims to be aware of any special exclusion zone that could have applied to this ship in this location.
Are you suggesting that when somebody claiming to be an authority on sailing states some legislation that applies to the area we sail in that we should ignore him without giving him the chance to quote the legislation he's refering to?
Standing on in front of a Frigate: stupid. Sailing round the transom of a Frigate (as this yacht did): No probs, no matter how close.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Daka is trolling on his favourite tack again and the telephoto lens is as big as that warship's guns.
The yachts in the last picture posted are still sailing with freed sheets and seen passing astern of the warship, had it been necessary to turn more to pass astern of it then they could have done so even without resorting to tacking or use of engines.
We know that Daka in his infinite wisdom and knowledge of ColRegs would recomend turning and running even before entering the close confines of the Solent had he known that a warship was about.
I have a sneaking suspicion too that these pics (lousy quality BTW) could actually show the warship in a channel and the yachts outside of it in shallower waters, ie the pics are rigged more than the yachts.
There, I couldn't resist a comment, I have been Dakered.
The yachts in the last picture posted are still sailing with freed sheets and seen passing astern of the warship, had it been necessary to turn more to pass astern of it then they could have done so even without resorting to tacking or use of engines.
We know that Daka in his infinite wisdom and knowledge of ColRegs would recomend turning and running even before entering the close confines of the Solent had he known that a warship was about.
I have a sneaking suspicion too that these pics (lousy quality BTW) could actually show the warship in a channel and the yachts outside of it in shallower waters, ie the pics are rigged more than the yachts.
There, I couldn't resist a comment, I have been Dakered.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
You are way off on all points.
Happened in the south channel between Ryde and cowes.
Note GBR 1756 L projects a shadow from his radar blip per to his foresail.
You know the forsail is close.
Now look at the projected shadow of Vela onto the Frigate.
Note the shadow is from the foresail that rakes back and note the shadow will be 5 ft lower (from bipper shadow)
I was at 30 knots going to the stern of the frigate ready to recover casualties.
The frigates stern was hard over at I estimate sliding 15 knots out the way.(have photo proof of this but cant get to it now)
Very simple question, should the yacht have got into this situation.
As to tacking away.....come on your the sailors /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
The frigate had stolen his wind.
Any junior helm on a days sailing course would have spotted that one, now who is trolling /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I would also like to comment in the interests of safety , someone mentioned standing on while being overtaken.
can be dangerous, a large ship at 20 knots especially in narrow channels pulls water from the sides including a shallow where you may feel safe in, result you will be sucked to the ship like a magnet.
Happened in the south channel between Ryde and cowes.
Note GBR 1756 L projects a shadow from his radar blip per to his foresail.
You know the forsail is close.
Now look at the projected shadow of Vela onto the Frigate.
Note the shadow is from the foresail that rakes back and note the shadow will be 5 ft lower (from bipper shadow)
I was at 30 knots going to the stern of the frigate ready to recover casualties.
The frigates stern was hard over at I estimate sliding 15 knots out the way.(have photo proof of this but cant get to it now)
Very simple question, should the yacht have got into this situation.
As to tacking away.....come on your the sailors /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
The frigate had stolen his wind.
Any junior helm on a days sailing course would have spotted that one, now who is trolling /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I would also like to comment in the interests of safety , someone mentioned standing on while being overtaken.
can be dangerous, a large ship at 20 knots especially in narrow channels pulls water from the sides including a shallow where you may feel safe in, result you will be sucked to the ship like a magnet.
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
You are way off on all points.
Happened in the south channel between Ryde and cowes.
Note GBR 1756 L projects a shadow from his radar blip per to his foresail.
You know the forsail is close.
Now look at the projected shadow of Vela onto the Frigate.
Note the shadow is from the foresail that rakes back and note the shadow will be 5 ft lower (from bipper shadow)
[/ QUOTE ]
You can apparently 'see' things in your photographs that I cannot see at all on here.
[ QUOTE ]
As to tacking away.....come on your the sailors
The frigate had stolen his wind.
Any junior helm on a days sailing course would have spotted that one, now who is trolling
[/ QUOTE ]
Rubbish! The yachts are clearly upwind of the warship, no wind shadow at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I would also like to comment in the interests of safety , someone mentioned standing on while being overtaken.
can be dangerous, a large ship at 20 knots especially in narrow channels pulls water from the sides including a shallow where you may feel safe in, result you will be sucked to the ship like a magnet.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are on more sparsely equipped vessels than your whizz banger and don't have the BMUS (Beam Me Up Scottie) system installed. I don't think that the Navy would be travelling at 20kts in a narrow channel either, that is usually reserved for whizz bangers. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Do tell where you would go to get out of the way of a large vessel (no right of way) approaching from dead astern at say 20kts if your own vessel could only manage 5 or 6kts? Been there (middle of western Channel, southbound, deepwater not in the lanes) got the tee shirt and reported the bar steward to the MCA. He didn't answer VHF calls, had two radar scanners and neither were running, both stopped and with binos I could see nobody on the bridge from 75m away. Lloyd Pacifico was the name and the CG told me they had had several other instances of this cowboy reported before ours. We finally decided which way to turn was best when he was under half a mile away, until then we could just as easily made things worse rather than better. We don't have your 30kt option you see?
You are way off on all points.
Happened in the south channel between Ryde and cowes.
Note GBR 1756 L projects a shadow from his radar blip per to his foresail.
You know the forsail is close.
Now look at the projected shadow of Vela onto the Frigate.
Note the shadow is from the foresail that rakes back and note the shadow will be 5 ft lower (from bipper shadow)
[/ QUOTE ]
You can apparently 'see' things in your photographs that I cannot see at all on here.
[ QUOTE ]
As to tacking away.....come on your the sailors
The frigate had stolen his wind.
Any junior helm on a days sailing course would have spotted that one, now who is trolling
[/ QUOTE ]
Rubbish! The yachts are clearly upwind of the warship, no wind shadow at all.
[ QUOTE ]
I would also like to comment in the interests of safety , someone mentioned standing on while being overtaken.
can be dangerous, a large ship at 20 knots especially in narrow channels pulls water from the sides including a shallow where you may feel safe in, result you will be sucked to the ship like a magnet.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are on more sparsely equipped vessels than your whizz banger and don't have the BMUS (Beam Me Up Scottie) system installed. I don't think that the Navy would be travelling at 20kts in a narrow channel either, that is usually reserved for whizz bangers. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Do tell where you would go to get out of the way of a large vessel (no right of way) approaching from dead astern at say 20kts if your own vessel could only manage 5 or 6kts? Been there (middle of western Channel, southbound, deepwater not in the lanes) got the tee shirt and reported the bar steward to the MCA. He didn't answer VHF calls, had two radar scanners and neither were running, both stopped and with binos I could see nobody on the bridge from 75m away. Lloyd Pacifico was the name and the CG told me they had had several other instances of this cowboy reported before ours. We finally decided which way to turn was best when he was under half a mile away, until then we could just as easily made things worse rather than better. We don't have your 30kt option you see?
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Robin, you are right as usual. I have tried to explain how things work, but perhaps should have known better than to be drawn into this pointless and illinformed debate.
As far as the Frigate (HMS RICHMOND) is concerned, the yachts passed astern. If they got too close it was stupid, but there was no collision. Sailing yachts often pass rather closer to things than I suspect that DAKA does in his fast powerboat.
However, were they closer than was prudent? - who knows, as the foreshortening effect of the long lens makes it impossible to say. Shadows don't convince me either way. (What time of day was it? How high was the sun?)
Does this have any bearing on IRPCS in open waters. NO.
Was the Frigate the stand on vessel - YES - she was in confined waters:
SOUTHAMPTON PORT AUTHORITY BYELAWS
"Navigation in fairways
10. (1) The master of a small vessel, which is not confined to the fairway, shall not make use of the fairway so as to obstruct other vessels which can navigate only within the fairway."
Nothing else to say so I'll shut up and leave trolling to those who catch fish.
As far as the Frigate (HMS RICHMOND) is concerned, the yachts passed astern. If they got too close it was stupid, but there was no collision. Sailing yachts often pass rather closer to things than I suspect that DAKA does in his fast powerboat.
However, were they closer than was prudent? - who knows, as the foreshortening effect of the long lens makes it impossible to say. Shadows don't convince me either way. (What time of day was it? How high was the sun?)
Does this have any bearing on IRPCS in open waters. NO.
Was the Frigate the stand on vessel - YES - she was in confined waters:
SOUTHAMPTON PORT AUTHORITY BYELAWS
"Navigation in fairways
10. (1) The master of a small vessel, which is not confined to the fairway, shall not make use of the fairway so as to obstruct other vessels which can navigate only within the fairway."
Nothing else to say so I'll shut up and leave trolling to those who catch fish.
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Nothing else to say so I'll shut up and leave trolling to those who catch fish.
[/ QUOTE ]
Me neither and my trolling line will be going out this weekend for our usual jaunt south and quite probably as usual it will catch much fewer fish than Daka catches raggies! Will you be out fishing this year John?
Robin
Nothing else to say so I'll shut up and leave trolling to those who catch fish.
[/ QUOTE ]
Me neither and my trolling line will be going out this weekend for our usual jaunt south and quite probably as usual it will catch much fewer fish than Daka catches raggies! Will you be out fishing this year John?
Robin
Stemar
Well-Known Member
10. (1) The master of a small vessel, which is not confined to the fairway, shall not make use of the fairway so as to obstruct other vessels which can navigate only within the fairway."
IIRC, there's a bit about showing the appropriate shape or lights as well, so you know who you're supposed to give way to and who not (if you're feeling brave enough - when they're that size, I'm not!)
I also have a vague recollection of something about if you get too close to the grey funnel line, you'll be warned of and if you don't respond you'll be "deemed to have hostile intent"
I wonder how long it would take Goalkeeper to reduce a MAB to plastic matches?
IIRC, there's a bit about showing the appropriate shape or lights as well, so you know who you're supposed to give way to and who not (if you're feeling brave enough - when they're that size, I'm not!)
I also have a vague recollection of something about if you get too close to the grey funnel line, you'll be warned of and if you don't respond you'll be "deemed to have hostile intent"
I wonder how long it would take Goalkeeper to reduce a MAB to plastic matches?
Pete7
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
10. (1) The master of a small vessel, which is not confined to the fairway, shall not make use of the fairway so as to obstruct other vessels which can navigate only within the fairway."
[/ QUOTE ] Who said he was in a fairway? He has a draft of 5.8m and in the Solent, bags of room especially as the highwater tides were at lunchtime.
Pete
10. (1) The master of a small vessel, which is not confined to the fairway, shall not make use of the fairway so as to obstruct other vessels which can navigate only within the fairway."
[/ QUOTE ] Who said he was in a fairway? He has a draft of 5.8m and in the Solent, bags of room especially as the highwater tides were at lunchtime.
Pete
SirSnoozalot
Well-Known Member
Coool. Have we got Goalkeeper on our Frigates now? Didn't know that.
samwestwood
Well-Known Member
At the end of the day the yachts are in the wrong.
They got to close to a ship.
Inside the solent the ship always has right of way over smaller vessels.
There is not bags of room even the frigate knows this which is why his anchor is ready.
Also just a note due to the current climate (terrorism) approaching a warship is not a good idea as they can and will fire appone you if they percive you as a threat.
(Nudge to all you mbos who dont keep a Ch16 watch)
This isnt as likely with a british grey but i wouldnt chance it with a yank.
They got to close to a ship.
Inside the solent the ship always has right of way over smaller vessels.
There is not bags of room even the frigate knows this which is why his anchor is ready.
Also just a note due to the current climate (terrorism) approaching a warship is not a good idea as they can and will fire appone you if they percive you as a threat.
(Nudge to all you mbos who dont keep a Ch16 watch)
This isnt as likely with a british grey but i wouldnt chance it with a yank.
samwestwood
Well-Known Member
Also VELA is not a sunsail boat.
It is owned by Sailtime and based in gosport marina.]
Vela is a Beneteau 343 Oceanis Clipper
http://www.sailtime.co.uk/index.php?sid=311&base_id=3
It is owned by Sailtime and based in gosport marina.]
Vela is a Beneteau 343 Oceanis Clipper
http://www.sailtime.co.uk/index.php?sid=311&base_id=3
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
...Inside the solent the ship always has right of way over smaller vessels...
[/ QUOTE ]
Where on earth did you get that idea from?
...Inside the solent the ship always has right of way over smaller vessels...
[/ QUOTE ]
Where on earth did you get that idea from?
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Its all above .
It is clear ( almost ).
The incident occurred in the Dockyard of Portsmouth that extends more or less as far as the Nab and stops at Cowes where Southampton take over.
QHM calls a 250 m exclusion zone on ch11 or 13 (who bothers to listen to that).
And the exclusion can be withdrawn by either
Ship leaving the Nab or by QMH on ch 11 or 13 ( who bothers to listen to that)
Further the exclusion zone can be implemented by a diamond shape over a diamond shape ( when you zoom in these can be seen on my full size photos , I think anyway, there are two diamonds).
I have a full summary report I can post if you want it but to be honest I Thought everyone knew this and they were just winding me up so I didnt bother to post it.
If there is genuine interest I will post it with pleasure but some times I post on the sailing forum gets taken the wrong way, I dont mind a bit of leg pulling but some of it gets a bit nasty.
It is clear ( almost ).
The incident occurred in the Dockyard of Portsmouth that extends more or less as far as the Nab and stops at Cowes where Southampton take over.
QHM calls a 250 m exclusion zone on ch11 or 13 (who bothers to listen to that).
And the exclusion can be withdrawn by either
Ship leaving the Nab or by QMH on ch 11 or 13 ( who bothers to listen to that)
Further the exclusion zone can be implemented by a diamond shape over a diamond shape ( when you zoom in these can be seen on my full size photos , I think anyway, there are two diamonds).
I have a full summary report I can post if you want it but to be honest I Thought everyone knew this and they were just winding me up so I didnt bother to post it.
If there is genuine interest I will post it with pleasure but some times I post on the sailing forum gets taken the wrong way, I dont mind a bit of leg pulling but some of it gets a bit nasty.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
...It is clear ( almost )...
[/ QUOTE ]
No it is not. The statement made by the poster was: "Inside the solent the ship always has right of way over smaller vessels". This is not the case and the statement is just plain wrong.
So wrong in fact, that it can only be a
/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
...It is clear ( almost )...
[/ QUOTE ]
No it is not. The statement made by the poster was: "Inside the solent the ship always has right of way over smaller vessels". This is not the case and the statement is just plain wrong.
So wrong in fact, that it can only be a
DAKA
Well-Known Member
<span style="color:red"> LOCAL NOTICE TO MARINERS
No 40/05
Re-issue 40/05 DOCKYARD PORT OF PORTSMOUTH DORMANT EXCLUSION ZONE FOR UNDERWAY WARSHIPS
The Queen's Harbour Master Portsmouth hereby gives notice of the following Direction hereby made under schedule 2 paragraph 5 to the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth Order 2005 (“the 2005 Order”) for the proper protection of HM’s vessels and property, namely, the protection and security of warships underway within the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth (DPP) by the imposition of an exclusion zone of up to 250m radius around such warships.
This Direction is also made pursuant to the general duty to protect the port conferred on the Queen’s Harbour Master by section 4 of the Dockyard Ports Regulation Act 1865.
The exclusion zone will be activated by direction from QHM over VHF Channel 11 or 13 and indicated in the movements signal, if time permits.
</span>
The incident occurred in the Dockyard of Portsmouth.( see admiralty chart 5600.3 or Brendns post above.)
I know I fall easily for trolls /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
But in this case the new poster has gone to the trouble to read the regulations and find out about Vela and where she is from.
We just need someone to check for grey paint on the anchor.
I know a lot more about this than I have posted and I have a lot more photos than posted, all in very high definition, there is a large 15 m long deep scratch on the ship .
No 40/05
Re-issue 40/05 DOCKYARD PORT OF PORTSMOUTH DORMANT EXCLUSION ZONE FOR UNDERWAY WARSHIPS
The Queen's Harbour Master Portsmouth hereby gives notice of the following Direction hereby made under schedule 2 paragraph 5 to the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth Order 2005 (“the 2005 Order”) for the proper protection of HM’s vessels and property, namely, the protection and security of warships underway within the Dockyard Port of Portsmouth (DPP) by the imposition of an exclusion zone of up to 250m radius around such warships.
This Direction is also made pursuant to the general duty to protect the port conferred on the Queen’s Harbour Master by section 4 of the Dockyard Ports Regulation Act 1865.
The exclusion zone will be activated by direction from QHM over VHF Channel 11 or 13 and indicated in the movements signal, if time permits.
</span>
The incident occurred in the Dockyard of Portsmouth.( see admiralty chart 5600.3 or Brendns post above.)
I know I fall easily for trolls /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
But in this case the new poster has gone to the trouble to read the regulations and find out about Vela and where she is from.
We just need someone to check for grey paint on the anchor.
I know a lot more about this than I have posted and I have a lot more photos than posted, all in very high definition, there is a large 15 m long deep scratch on the ship .