Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
Thank goodness for that, even without the in depth knowledge of colregs (though I've done DS Theory) that would have been my approach...
Collision Reg Question - Expert Required
- Thread starter Ammonite
- Start date
Thank goodness for that, even without the in depth knowledge of colregs (though I've done DS Theory) that would have been my approach...
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Which rule says that?
I don't think that the rules ever define the vessel being overtaken as stand on.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Have you considered a career in nitpicking?
You are right, it doesn't. The obligation is purely on the overtaking boat to keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
Strangely, the rules don't require a vessel being overtaken to maintain course and speed but not to do so would be a bit daft would it not?
- W
bedouin
Well-Known Member
Certainly not daft - but just not required by the regs - this is perhaps one case where the boat really does have a "right of way" to do almost anything he pleases.
Of course overtaking situations can last much longer than crossing situations, so it might in difficult if you constrained the boat being overtaken to be stand-on
earlybird
Well-Known Member
Just to nipick a bit more:-
Rule 17 uses the term "stand on vessel" and therefore requires the vessel being overtaken to maintain course and speed.
( "Stand on vessel" is not a term used generally throughout the IRPCS for avoidance situations).
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Well spotted:
17: Action by Stand-on Vessel
(a) (i) Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way of the other shall keep her course and speed
(Not actually totally grammatically correct, the third 'of' should not be there IMO, but the gist is there)
- W
andygc
Well-Known Member
Cobblers, cobber. If the leeward boat is overtaking it keeps clear. It is not at all unusual for sailing boats to be overtaken by sailing boats, happens to me all the time because I sail a 27 feet wooden long-keeler and the local waters are infested with AWBs of 35 feet and upwards, as well as some graceful classics - and then there's the catamarans. Not at all unusual for me to be near the shore but crossing to seaward of Tor Bay or Start Bay in a westerly when something bigger comes up from leeward and goes clear ahead before luffing across me to get into Torquay or Dartmouth.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
It always occurs to me that if any forumites happened upon each other in a real-life Col Regs situation there would be much circling, going below to find the book, shout-downs and, possibly, collisions, whilst they get it all sorted out.
Does the Highway Code hold such horrors for forumites?
Does the Highway Code hold such horrors for forumites?
Pete R
Well-Known Member
Not trying to nit pick but if that statement is correct are you saying that the boat being overtaken is not allowed to tack or gybe away from the overtaking boat till it is past and clear?
G12
Well-Known Member
VO5
Well-Known Member
Now let's see shall we ?
The rules are not laid down like you would lay down railway lines with totally rigid parameters.
The rules are laid down for seafarers to use common sense.
And common sense dictates that if a vessel is being overtaken by another vessel, even though the onus is upon the overtaking vessel to to keep clear whilst overtaking, the overtaken vessel ought not to choose the period in which it is being overtaken to choose to carry out esoteric unnecessary manoevers.
Notwithstandinmg my explanation above, circumstances may dictate an alteration of course by the overtaken vessel. The onus rests upon the overtaking vessel to keep clear.
HOWEVER... if the overtaken vessel then deliberately and for no valid reason begins to perform pirouttes in the proposed track of the overtaking vessel and as a consequence the scenario is forcibly changed creating a situation of vessels crossing then crossing rules would apply.
It is considered bad seamanship to unnecessarily perform pirouettes when being overtaken.
That is why the rules were laid down, because whereas very high levels of intelligence are rare and low levels commonplace, COMMON SENSE itself is not that common.
At night the overtaking vessel ceases to be an overtaking vessel when its sidelights and mastlight are shut off from view and the stern light becomes visible.
By day though the lights are not displayed the demarcation between these is the bearing that defines whether a vessel is crossing, overtaking or being overtaken.
I hope and expect this satisfies your query.
VO5
Well-Known Member
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
Where does that definition come from?
VO5
Well-Known Member
You will find it in the RN Manual of Navigation, in the syllabus of studies for Masters and Mates.
It is what every properly trained watchkeeper is made to learn.
Additionally, if a vessel is being overtaken and the overtaking vessel is on its port quarter, when the overtaking vessel draws forward and the sternlight of the overtaken vessel can no longer be seen and its red light and mastlight begins to show, this does not indicate the overtaking vessel is finally past or clear.
For the overtaking vessel to be finally past and clear its sternlight must be visible to the vessel it has overttaken.
Now, suppose in these circumstances, the overtaken vessel decides to alter course to starboard, AWAY from the propsed track of the overtaking vessel, then, it may develop that the overtaken vessel will begin to show a green light to its overtaker.
In these circumstances neither is an overtaking or crossing vessel. Both are clear of each other. Risk of collision does not exist (bar exceptional circumstances).
Remember the Mnemonic:~
Green to green and red to red,
It is now safe to go ahead.
Exceptinal circumstances, may include vessels not under command, landing or discharging aircraft, minesweeping, seismic operations, or towing, for example.
Fishing boats with nets.
Trawlers.
Submarines excercising.
Then from the point of view of prudent seamanship, the overtaken vessel ought to be aware of the special circumstances of the case and additionally consider tidal and wind effects, restrictions relating to draft, relative speeds, what is a safe distance, and so on.
Pete R
Well-Known Member
No not really as you may have missed the bit where I said "away". So no pirouetting or other such strange manoeuvres.
However you do get the point with your later post where now I have moved away there is no risk of collision and therefore the regs do not apply. Well done.
I was trying to get a reply from webcraft who said the overtaken vessel would be stand on and therefore have to maintain course and speed.
VO5
Well-Known Member
No not really as you may have missed the bit where I said "away". So no pirouetting or other such strange manoeuvres.
However you do get the point with your later post where now I have moved away there is no risk of collision and therefore the regs do not apply. Well done.
I was trying to get a reply from webcraft who said the overtaken vessel would be stand on and therefore have to maintain course and speed.
Webbie is correct.
If the overtaken vessel alters course to port or starboard sufficiently the overtaking vessel will see a red or a green light.
At that juncture the overtaken vessel becomes a crossing vessel according to the rules.
Bearing away and showing a light of the same colour to the overtaking vessel still makes the overtaken vessel a crossing vessel, but danger of collision can be safely assumed not longer to exist.
Bearing toward and showing a light of the opposite colour to the overtaking vessel indicates risk of collision exists. This is particularly exacerbated if additionally a close quarters situation is allowed to develop as a consequence, so there.
VO5
Well-Known Member
And, additionally, normally when a "contrary light" is seen on either side, this indicates risk of colilision exists, with the exception of the said light altering its bearing rapidly by drawing aft (falling behind) or drawing forward (advancing ahead), as for examp0le in the case of a vessel, which, for whatever reason, significantly slows down, accelerates or stops.
VO5
Well-Known Member
And additionally, these sudden changes of course and speed are characteristic of patrol vessels, customs launches, navy ribs, trawlers engaged in trawling, and fishing boats and jetskis.
A
angelsson
Guest
I agree entirely, the rules are simple to observe and are unambiguous, this thread is a good way to discuss the rules and give examples of possible situations, but, observe the rules and use your seamanship and common sense to. No interpretation required, the rules are clear.
VO5
Well-Known Member
Here's another thing, another bothery...
A stand on vessel, according to how the rules should be intepreted means a vessel that maintains course and speed.
The idea, so as not to create any doubt, is for the course and speed to remain constant.
I have seen this aspect of the rules broken many times, with the stand on vessel weaving about and altering speed intermittently.
It is a very disconcerting experience. I do wish people would not do it.
Another bothery is the habit some others have in persisting in crossing ahead.
The rules again specifically say crossing ahead should be avoided, yet it remains a common malpractice.
And yet another malpractice is for give way vessels to give way at the last minute, and then for the alteration of course to be minimal. This again is against the rules. An alteration of course should be significant, so as to leave the stand on vessel in no doubt as to the give way's vessel's intention.
Then a 5 degree alteration is neither here nor there, but a 20 or a 25 degree alteration as a minimum is a clear and necessary declaration of intent, and carried out in good time, disallowing a close quarters situation from developing.
A stand on vessel, according to how the rules should be intepreted means a vessel that maintains course and speed.
The idea, so as not to create any doubt, is for the course and speed to remain constant.
I have seen this aspect of the rules broken many times, with the stand on vessel weaving about and altering speed intermittently.
It is a very disconcerting experience. I do wish people would not do it.
Another bothery is the habit some others have in persisting in crossing ahead.
The rules again specifically say crossing ahead should be avoided, yet it remains a common malpractice.
And yet another malpractice is for give way vessels to give way at the last minute, and then for the alteration of course to be minimal. This again is against the rules. An alteration of course should be significant, so as to leave the stand on vessel in no doubt as to the give way's vessel's intention.
Then a 5 degree alteration is neither here nor there, but a 20 or a 25 degree alteration as a minimum is a clear and necessary declaration of intent, and carried out in good time, disallowing a close quarters situation from developing.