Collision Reg Question - Expert Required

[Ammonite]

I've been pondering the following and can't seem to find an answer in the texts I have:-

2 boats. Both on the same tack (starboard), heading for the same way point. One running pretty much downwind, the other on a broad reach - imagine one boat departing from Bembridge (IoW) for Chichester, the other from Portsmouth also heading to Chichester in a SW wind.

As the boats approach Chichester the Bembridge boat is ahead (by roughly 500m) but the Portsmouth boat is catching up fast. The Bembridge boat remains the windward boat, but it is also being overtaken (were it night the Portsmouth boat could only see the other boats stern light and would not see their port light until they were approximately 100 metres to port of the Bembridge boat)

Which boat is the stand-on boat and how would this change if the Portsmouth boat could see the Bembridge boats port light at 500 metres, 50 metres, 10 metres etc. What sort of guidelines would seem sensible (for your average 20 - 40ft yacht doing 4 - 8knots)

This is a theoretical scenario as the boats in question got out of each other way well before this.

 

[Evadne]

If you are heading in the same direction and in the sternlight sector of another boat, then you are overtaking. If not, then you are either to windward or leeward. The correct answers follow from there.

As you say, it only becomes a problem in theory, it's quite rare for a sailing boat to overtake another "quite fast", speed differences are usually only a few knots at the most, especially if the slower boat is reaching and the faster boat is on a dead run. And if they're heading for Chichester they'll both be turning onto a closer reach at the same point to head up the channel.

 

[Grumpybear]

If you want experts, you've come to the right place - there are dozens, and all with different (conflicting) opinions!

 

[nickd]

IMHO

Bembridge boat is being overtaken so is the stand on vessel. Until the Portsmouth boat becomes less than 22.5deg abaft the beam at which point the Portsmouth boat becomes the stand on vessel although it should not make any manouveres without giving the Bembridge boat ample time to do something about it.

If the two boats are taking part in an organised race, and the waypoint is a racing mark then should the overtaking boat also get an overlap on the inside track to the mark before the Bembridge boat is within three boat lengths (an overlap being its nose is across an imaginery line drawn across the back of the bembridge boats transom) then it gets right of way at the mark and the Bembridge boat must give it sufficient room to round the mark in a seaman like fashion.

 

[Ammonite]

This reinforces my view that the Bembridge vessel remains the stand-on vessel until the Portsmouth boat is forward of 22.5% degree abaft the beam but this can happen at varying distances between the two boats. A bit random but say...

i) < 50 metres - suicidal (Bembridge boat should remain stand-on)
ii) 50 - 100m - dangerous (as above)
iii) 100 - 200m - ungentlemanly/unladylike behaviour on the part of the Portsmouth boat but technically OK I guess

Personally if it was obvious I was the much faster boat and not racing I'd leave the Bembridge boat in peace and steer around but wondered what the accepted wisdom was

 

[awol]

... and 13 says
(d) Any subsequent alteration of bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

So none of this once you see the light the rights/responsibilities change!

 

[john_morris_uk]

... and 13 says
(d) Any subsequent alteration of bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

So none of this once you see the light the rights/responsibilities change!

I agree - with respect to the others, theirs was an appalling interpretation of the IRPCS. The overtaking rule takes precedence and stays in force "until passed and clear".

The answer is that the vessel being overtaken must hold its course until the overtaking vessel is passed and clear. If some circumstances dictated that they were going to overshoot the harbour entrance, then good seamanship would perhaps indicate that they must either slow down, or indicate to the other vessel that they would like to turn into the harbour. The other vessel ought to be aware and allow them to make their turn, but we are into the realms of what is a polite and sensible seamanship way of behaving and that only overlaps with IRPCS and doesn't have any legal standing.

 

[john_morris_uk]

This reinforces my view that the Bembridge vessel remains the stand-on vessel until the Portsmouth boat is forward of 22.5% degree abaft the beam but this can happen at varying distances between the two boats. A bit random but say...

i) < 50 metres - suicidal (Bembridge boat should remain stand-on)
ii) 50 - 100m - dangerous (as above)
iii) 100 - 200m - ungentlemanly/unladylike behaviour on the part of the Portsmouth boat but technically OK I guess

Personally if it was obvious I was the much faster boat and not racing I'd leave the Bembridge boat in peace and steer around but wondered what the accepted wisdom was

The rules don't quote distances - and rightly so for all sorts of reasons. Perhaps your suggested figures only say something about what you are comfortable with. I know people who don't like to get within a mile of a ship, but others who are quite happy sailing a few tens of metres past the stern of a ship as they cross and waving up to the crew loafing on the aft deck.

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

I had a similar scenario a few RTIR's a go when we were about 500m from the finish.
I was being caught up by a faster yacht, we were both on Starboard, but we were pointing better. My son on the helm was instructed to point as high as was possible and to maintain our bid for the line (and on the collision course) as we were stand-on vessel. When the overtaking boat was on my starboard quarter and about 5 metres away, closing gently on us, he called to the helm to tack and shouted a polite 'well held' to us ???

It was a hairy few moments but we were prepared to give way if it meant risk of collision and we would have stuck a protest in with not such a polite retort.

 

[pagoda]

This reinforces my view that the Bembridge vessel remains the stand-on vessel until the Portsmouth boat is forward of 22.5% degree abaft the beam but this can happen at varying distances between the two boats. A bit random but say...

i) < 50 metres - suicidal (Bembridge boat should remain stand-on)
ii) 50 - 100m - dangerous (as above)
iii) 100 - 200m - ungentlemanly/unladylike behaviour on the part of the Portsmouth boat but technically OK I guess

Personally if it was obvious I was the much faster boat and not racing I'd leave the Bembridge boat in peace and steer around but wondered what the accepted wisdom was

Unless you have radar, range is an imponderable.
Basically... look our for yourself .... if in doubt of another boat's intentions - just keep clear and/or 5 toots and observe closely...
If you're not sure - keep well off??
Being stand-on is all very well, but your duty is to avoid collision.

My basic tenet is observe and keep clear...

 

[webcraft]

The rules don't quote distances - and rightly so for all sorts of reasons. Perhaps your suggested figures only say something about what you are comfortable with. I know people who don't like to get within a mile of a ship, but others who are quite happy sailing a few tens of metres past the stern of a ship as they cross and waving up to the crew loafing on the aft deck.

The rules say the boat being overtaken is the stand-on vessel until the other vessel is PAST AND CLEAR. This is not ambiguous in any way, and all this talk of the overtaking boat suddenly becoming the stand-on vessel when still in a close quarters situation demonstrates once again that some of the self-appointed sea lawyers on this forum are a menace on the water.

(Not necessarily aimned at you John - I suspect you didn't read the 'question' (or troll) carefully enough before responding)

- W

 

[Corribee Boy]

+1

 

[awol]

Well done to the OP for starting this and to his mate Nickd who chipped in with the idea that the rules change at 2 points aft of the beam. A fine trolling effort!

I feel a right twit for thinking you were serious.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The rules say the boat being overtaken is the stand-on vessel until the other vessel is PAST AND CLEAR. This is not ambiguous in any way, and all this talk of the overtaking boat suddenly becoming the stand-on vessel when still in a close quarters situation demonstrates once again that some of the self-appointed sea lawyers on this forum are a menace on the water.

(Not necessarily aimned at you John - I suspect you didn't read the 'question' (or troll) carefully enough before responding)

- W

No problem - except I am still not sure which bit you think I misunderstood and I can't be bothered to go and study it all if it was an attempt at trolling.

I did think that it was a bit of a micky mouse way of understanding the rules though and struggled to be polite about those who made the strange posts...

 

[VO5]

No problem - except I am still not sure which bit you think I misunderstood and I can't be bothered to go and study it all if it was an attempt at trolling.

I did think that it was a bit of a micky mouse way of understanding the rules though and struggled to be polite about those who made the strange posts...

+1.

I agree with you.

I never cease to be morbidly fascinated at the extent of nit picking that goes on in these boards.

From memory I quote "Notwithstanding anything contained in these rules, EVERY VESSEL when overtaking shall keep OUT OF THE WAY of the overtaken vessel until finally past and clear".

The overtaking vessel has the duty to keep clear.

When and if either vessel becomes a crossing vessel is another matter altogether.

 

[awol]

+1.
From memory I quote "Notwithstanding anything contained in these rules, EVERY VESSEL when overtaking shall keep OUT OF THE WAY of the overtaken vessel until finally past and clear".

Alzheimers or perhaps time to refresh your memory? What your memory should have quoted was:

Rule 13

Overtaking.
(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

(b) A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

(c) When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

 

[William_H]

Overtaking

Well in my humble opinion the OP was asking about sailing boats. It seems to me that with sailing boats the overtaking rule is almost always never applicable. One boat when overtaking or meeting will always be more to windward than the other and windward boat keeps clear. Assuming both on the same tack.
Only if both are on the same course and the collision is likely to be bow to the middle of the overtaken boats transom is the overtaking rule applicable. Any displacement sideways will see one boat to windward of the other and any difference in course must see one boat to windward of the other.
So mostly overtaking rule applies to powered boats. Hows that for a troll? olewill

 

[webcraft]

Hows that for a troll?

Bit rubbish really when you consider that this is explained quite clearly in part a) of Rule 13 (i.e. right at the start of the rule)

Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

Which part of notwithstanding anything do you not understand?

- W

 

[prv]

Only if both are on the same course and the collision is likely to be bow to the middle of the overtaken boats transom is the overtaking rule applicable.

Sez you.

Pete

 

[Lady Campanula]

All the above confirms me in my view that one of the more dangerous parts of the planet is the sea-triangle bounded by Bembridge, Portsmouth and Chichester Bar - and I will also allow a candidate-section of West Australian waters.