Col Regs lights for a "vessel in attendance" ?

[sarabande]

QHM Plymouth today

"

1. During the period 29 Jan – 5 Feb 2020, trials will be carried out of an Unmanned Surface Vessel (USV) these trials will be conducted within the Dockyard Port of Plymouth in Cawsand Bay.
   
2. The vehicles will be accompanied to site by a support vessel callsign ‘WAVEDANCER’ and remain in the vicinity throughout the trial. The support vessel will display appropriate lights and shapes as required by the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, and will monitor VHF Channel 14 throughout.

"


Come on, hazard a guess at which set of lights that WAVEDANCER will be showing at any stage of the trials.

They could be NUC, or the rule 3 red over white over red (RAM) in addition to her normal steaming lights. or mineclearing ones ?


Any more suggestions ?

 

[Refueler]

I would assume Special Ops lights and shapes ... Red white Red ... diamond ball diamond .... ??

 

[[70521]]

I wonder if this is the same USV that I attended a talk about a few years back?

 

[PaulRainbow]

I would assume Special Ops lights and shapes ... Red white Red ... diamond ball diamond .... ??

Special Ops ????

 

[PaulRainbow]

No need for anything special, Wavedancer is no more than a guard boat, she's not NUC or RAM, so just normal lights and shapes for whatever vessel she is.

 

[Refueler]

Special Ops ????

Oh dear here we go again ... just a nickname for gods sake ... go ask a mate on a bloody ship and the term is common at sea for Red White Red ...

The quoted passage by OP suggested lights and shapes .. I did not STATE they would be - I said ASSUMED based on the quoted passage ..

 

[PaulRainbow]

Oh dear here we go again ... just a nickname for gods sake ... go ask a mate on a bloody ship and the term is common at sea ...

It's Practical Boat Owner, not make a new name up for stuff forum.

So, why do you think a guard boat would be showing RAM lights then ?

 

[prv]

If they were going to show anything, RAM is the least inappropriate option. Valid if their movement is constrained by whatever it is they’re doing with the USV (which we don’t know, at least from what’s posted in this thread). But yeah, if they’re just lurking in the general area to keep an eye on it, they’re not RAM.

Pete

 

[VicS]

The LTNM says appropriate lights and shapes.

Surely the appropriate lights or shapes will be displayed according to the activity and circumstances at any particular time.

 

[Iliade]

Two cones, points together, welded on... ;0)

 

[DFL1010]

I would assume Special Ops lights and shapes ... Red white Red ... diamond ball diamond .... ??

Ball diamond ball, n'est pas?

 

[Refueler]

If they were going to show anything, RAM is the least inappropriate option. Valid if their movement is constrained by whatever it is they’re doing with the USV (which we don’t know, at least from what’s posted in this thread). But yeah, if they’re just lurking in the general area to keep an eye on it, they’re not RAM.

Pete

Thank you ... I was not going to reply to Rainbow's baiting ... but because you 'prv' have obviously considered the rules and what they mean - I will try to explain including a bit of background ....

In 1970's when I was Cadet studying for ticket ... the ColRegs were changing from the 1950's version to the 1970's new regs, where various seemingly straight forward additions were made ... ship may consider higher speed in reduced visibility if using radar etc. They also widened the use of various lights and shapes from the old 1950's rules. They also introduced the provision of being able to do MORE than the rules, whereas in the old 1950's version - they were far more rigid. Note I say MORE than the rules - not ignore or contravene them.
We were taught and the 1996 modifications did nothing to change it ... that the Rules were the MINIMUM standard to adhere to. They were not to be read as absolute, that they could not and should not be regarded as covering every situation / event - that's impossible.

With regard to Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre - the rules are particularly limited in their explanation as they could not include or envisage every situation to apply. Imagine trying to list all !! You'd need a book on that alone. Plus as we evolve on the water and technology - the circumstances of such increase. We were taught to look at each situation and consider whether our vessel was eligible for showing the signal. The criteria we were taught to use was whether the vessel had any restriction that would make it request another vessel to keep clear. This did not only mean towing a seismic cable (as I did for some years) or ship to ship or diving ops etc. - but any situation that meant we were limited in our action with regard an approaching vessel or situation.
In the matter of the 'Guard vessel' in OP's post - it is debatable as to the limits it is operating in ... if its the command boat of the UAV needing to stay close and in visual ... or its job is to keep others away from the UAV - it is reasonable to assume it can in fact show the Red White Red and (here I correct my previous error) Ball - Diamond - Ball shapes. If the Guard vessel decides that an approaching vessel can be accepted within normal rule signals - then so be it - its his decision and BOTH decisions are within the rules... because of the 1970's amendments.

Rainbow takes me to task and accuses me of 'inventing' the term Special Ops ... sorry BS ... because it was a common term at sea - why ? Because usually the signal is used to denote operations outside the norm ... Of course if Master wanted to state as an official instruction language - he would say Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre signals .... but in practice it was usual to hear the term - switch on Special Ops lights .. or hoist Special Ops shapes ... if the young Officer didn't understand - then it was told as Red White Red ... and NEVER in all the years I have been involved with ships have I heard it referred to as RAM !! (I will assume that is a Yachties term !)
Maybe 'special ops' is a term that has died out somewhat since my going ashore - but I still hear Special Ops term occasionally on visits to ships - particularly from the older senior officers when I have to attend Ship To Ship ...

It comes down to a fundamental fact : If the OOW or Master considers that an action or limitation is or may affect the safe conduct - he should take the appropriate action / display such signals as the rules allow and in consideration of prudent seamanship.

That last bit is amply illustrated in a question I was given during Aural examination for ticket by DTI examiner Southampton :

You are steaming along normally without any problems, relatively quiet day, good visibility, open sea - You see a tug and tow approaching on your port bow heading across. He is not showing any signals of restricted ability. You are at good distance ... what are the sound signals and what do you do ?

My answer was :

According to the rules, as he is not showing any restricted signals - he regards himself as able to manoeuvre. That means that he should alter course to pass down my port side clear. I am not required to make any sound signal but he should in accordance with the rules indicating his alteration of course. I should maintain course and speed.
But to be honest - I would make a bold alteration that is obvious and clear to allow him pass unhindered ahead, because it is much easier for me to avoid close 1/4's than for him. I consider that the act of Prudent Seaman.

The examiner smiled and commended me for the answer and agreed that was what he would most likely do as well. After the examination - we were chatting and we both mentioned the way the 1970's ColRegs basically allowed me to do that.
The matter is what is safe and sensible .. but always keeping the rules in mind and action.

Taking some such as Rainbow - they would answer only as per written rule. Even as that Tug and Tow struggles to control their tow...

Just to close and not so much to do with the original subject - but just as comment. When the 1970's rules were put to Committee for ratification - there were various arguments and this was copied in many cadet classrooms as well about an amendment that was regarded as 'questionable'
The amendment basically brought in the condition of action in event collision or likely collision was going to occur.
Loosely worded - It said that on the action of the give way vessel alone, if collision or close 1/4's situation cannot be avoided by their action alone - the stand on vessel should take such action as appropriate.
It was debated hotly that this could be interpreted as holding the stand on vessel too long before taking action ..

I'll now leave it as my original - "I assumed from the text of the OP's original post wording "..

 

[Refueler]

Ball diamond ball, n'est pas?

Yes .. I typed quickly - later I felt it was too late to go back and correct.

 

[DFL1010]

Funnily enough they were always referred to as the ram shapes when I was at sea. But you do you I guess.

 

[Refueler]

Funnily enough they were always referred to as the ram shapes when I was at sea. But you do you I guess.

Fair enough .. I never heard that and I sailed on various that hoisted / showed as routine ... Seismic .. and Ship to Ship .. usual term was special ops shapes / lights.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Thank you ... I was not going to reply to Rainbow's baiting ... but because you 'prv' have obviously considered the rules and what they mean - I will try to explain including a bit of background ....

<snip pointless waffle>

Rainbow takes me to task and accuses me of 'inventing' the term Special Ops ... sorry BS ... because it was a common term at sea - why ? Because usually the signal is used to denote operations outside the norm ... Of course if Master wanted to state as an official instruction language - he would say Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre signals .... but in practice it was usual to hear the term - switch on Special Ops lights .. or hoist Special Ops shapes ... if the young Officer didn't understand - then it was told as Red White Red ... and NEVER in all the years I have been involved with ships have I heard it referred to as RAM !! (I will assume that is a Yachties term !)[/quote}

I work on a number of offshore support vessels, the switches that operate the RAM lights are all labelled "RAM Lights", every single one i have ever worked on.

Maybe 'special ops' is a term that has died out somewhat since my going ashore

Must have.

<snip more pointless waffle]

I'll now leave it as my original - "I assumed from the text of the OP's original post wording "..

OP posted

accompanied to site by a support vessel callsign ‘WAVEDANCER’ and remain in the vicinity throughout the trial.

How does accompanying a vessel or remaining in the vicinity make it RAM ?

So, every time we sail in company or on one of those flotilla charters we have to hoist RAM signals ?

Colregs state

The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel.

 

[penberth3]

The LTNM says appropriate lights and shapes.

Surely the appropriate lights or shapes will be displayed according to the activity and circumstances at any particular time.

To avoid any doubt , it would have been better to say "the support vessel will display (this that and the other)…". Or perhaps they couldn't decide themselves what was "appropriate"?