Close shave today

[landaftaf]

Re: Bignick - agreed but ...

it says stand on until you judge that whatever the give way vessel may do will not avert collision, then you do such action which will best avert collision.
so its not a game of dare, its your call to choose when to break the bearing before a collision is inevitable.

 

[Guest]

Re: Bignick - agreed but ...

But that is why when the 'new rules' appeared in the 70's that people argued about them .... there are no guidelines as to when the change occurs from stand-on to take action. Only general statement open to individual interpretation.

OK - lets look at real life .... I was 3rd Mate on a 20,000 ton tanker in ballast riding light. We were steaming up and down in shelter of Isle of Man waiting for weather to go down to get pilot into Mersey ....
Masters standing orders were : "If vessel appears on port side / bow and does not appear to take avoiding action - call me." - now this seems innocent enough and straight fwd. NO it is not .... and it led to an argument where his action through the fear that prompted that instruction. I picked up a vessel approaching towards port bow ... quite some distance off .... by radar and later visually .... I took compass bearings and also a plot on radar ... I called him in accordance with Standing Orders. We were in hand steering with 1/4master on wheel.
His reaction was to command the helm to hard a stbd to turn away - the vessel was 'miles away' and no risk at that time ... also that he was obviously significantly larger than us, heavy laden and doubtful he would approach as far inshore as we were !!
We now run the risk of being aground - so I countered the order - informed the Master that he had not informed me of taking the con .... that I would make Log entry if he continued with such action - with letter to company. (we had a series of problems with this guy --- Chief / Second and myself .... it was time to stop the game !!). He sat in corner in Pilot chair and stayed quiet .... other vessel run in, turned parallel to us and all was fine. Incident was never mentioned again until the DoT inquiry 6 months later in the conduct and incidents with him later ....
What I am illustrating is that he decided a risk existed ... I decided as OOW that it did not - he was Master of the Vessel - but fear and uncertainty clouded his judgment .... he was a first trip Master of little experience prior. So there is the dilemma .... when do you decide that the point is reached .... and I hope that it also illustrates that I kept to the rules .... even though the grounding was sufficient reason to act as well.
Not long after he amended the order in the book - as we all just said OK - 3 compass bearings and we call him .... even if its 10 - 12 miles off .... there was no way we would wait till much closer and then have him do his 'party-piece' !!

I apologise to all Masters who may read the above and please accept that this person was a special one-off that was unsafe and possibly unsuited to his chosen profession .... it was noted that not long after his name wasn't seen on the company Masters list .... I left the company after serving on 'their elite' class and went foreign flag - where I met some of the best seaman and people ever. I never ever regretted leaving Brit flag ships .... BUT I was sad at the loss of the Brit fleets and sad that the world had changed so ..... When I joined the Merch - it was said at the interview - In nearly every international trade port of the world a Brit ship is entering, in or leaving this day and near every day ... now - you are lucky to FIND a Brit ship - and when you do - it has International Crew.

 

[KREW2]

Hi
I think I have just learned something that is not made obvious by basic instuction, can I asume that what determines the tack you are on is the wind direction onto your mainsail and not your genoa/spinnaker, that is to say if goosewinged you would be the standon boat only if your boom was out on portside

 

[landaftaf]

at the risk of enraging the yottie liberals who seem to think their local yot club is the b and end all in all colreg disputes .....

yes - you are correct

rules state: For the purposes of this Rule, the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the mainsail is carried or, in the case of a square-rigged vessel, the side opposite to that on which the largest fore-and-aft sail is carried.

so as the yot with the wind on her stbd side - carrying her mainsail on her port side, is the stand on vessel ..... however dont forget the yacht to windward is the give way vessel so that takes precedance

hope this helps

 

[Bergman]

Re: Bignick - agreed but ...

Yes

I understand that

But it still leaves a division of responsibility.

Perhaps a road type comparison (which I normally deplore but.....)

A give way line puts total responsibility on the vehicle approaching it. His decision whether to stop or not.

If he fails to stop any resulting collision is almost certainly his fault.

Only completely irresponsible action on part of other vehicle will change that.

This gives absolute clarity of responsibility

Obviously no-one is going to deliberately drive into a vehicle which fails to observe the give way line.

I know people will jump around and say how many accidents take place on and around give way lines but I would suggest that as a proportion of the number of vehicles that are involved per day it is very low.

Equally I know its difficult to draw lines on the sea but in my experience in other fields where you fail to have a clear responsibility to act you create a situation that is fraught with danger.

 

[landaftaf]

Re: Bignick - agreed but ...

mmmm - but where is the problem

port gives way to stbd
upwind gives way to down wind
if in doubt you giveway

/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[alahol2]

Re: Bignick - agreed but ...

Despite all the colregs, common sense etc I find that the best indication of whether I can trust to be the stand on vessel in crossing tacks, converging courses etc is eye contact. If the give way boat looks at you and makes eye contact, you can be fairly sure your right of way will be acknowledged. If eye contact is steadfastly refused than you can safely assume the give way vessel has no intention of giving way. Not very scientific but it has worked for me over the last 30 years or so in the Solent. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[landaftaf]

Re: Bignick - agreed but ...

mmmm - IMO not really a good tactic ........... especially as close 1/4 stuff can be like driving a car in london.
intimidation at sea - or ignoring the colregs is easily reported to the coastguard, they should keep these issues on file and it doesnt take long for a folio to be made up on a plonker.

forget about reporting to a club, go for it on ch 77 or whatever

if you can see his eyes hes normally too close anyway, unless racing

 

[misterg]

Re: Spinnaker

[ QUOTE ]
OK, OK, OK, i retract my insults that the guy was a pea brained twat.
Yes i know i was the one to give way, which i did, albeit very late to make the move.
However, this guy as far as i am concerned could/should have been prepared to also alter course to prevent a possible accident


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Micky, but you're a bl**dy liability. YOU should never have put the other guy in a position where he had to compensate for YOUR incompetence. Sure, this doesn't give him the right to ram you, but round one goes to the other guy, who DID WHAT HE SHOULD HAVE DONE. Anything more is damage limitation to compensate for a failure on YOUR part.

Sorry to be blunt.

Andy

 

[Micky]

Re: Spinnaker

It's OK Andy, not a problem to speak your part.
However i still say it should be EVERYONES duty to be prepared to take action to avoid a bonk, even if they are in the right lane.

So IMHO the other guy did NOTHING to help prevent what could have been an accident just because his attitude was I'M right, your wrong, so tough luck.

 

[Guest]

Marine Casualties are %age blamed ...

They divide the blame according to action taken to avoid collision basically - plus of course who started the incident. They NEVER blame 100% one boat / ship........ unless its a moving craft hitting an immoveable object or moored craft.

Why ? Because the stand-on boat has option according to rules to take action themselves .......... failure to do so will be taken against them.