Close shave today

Jimi\'s right

[ QUOTE ]
.. is acshully bollox .. what is says is that if you can't see what tack it is on cos your vision of the main is obscured by the spinnaker then you should assume it is on starboard ... it in no way alters the fundamental Colregs. IMHO if a boats ability to manouvre is hampered by the sail it is carrying it should stay out everyones way cos that's his problem!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Colregs make no mention of spinnakers. They simply say that if you are on port tack, and you see a vessel to windward who's tack you cannot determine (for whatever reason) then you assume that he is on starboard.

I've always been a little puzzled as to why Colregs didn't say (irrespective of the windward/leeward case) "if you can't decide which tack he's on, assume he's on starboard". If you check, you'll find that there are eight possible cases, depending on the tack you're on, the tack he's on, and which of you is leeward boat. In six of the eight possible combinations, making the assumption that he's on starboard will make no difference to whether you are give way or stand on boat. In the case picked up by Colregs (both boats on port tack, and you as leeward boat) making the assumption that he is on starboard changes you from stand on to give way. But be careful; he knows that he is on port, he doesn't know that you are uncertain, and hence he should give way: two boats both giving way is a recipe for trouble.

But there is an eighth case: you on starboard and windward boat, him on port and leeward. I suppose it could be said that under those conditions you should be able to tell that he is on port, not starboard, so the need for any assumption should not arise. But sometimes (particularly at night) it's not so easy to decide; should Colregs take account of that case as well?
 
Re: Spinnaker

Micky

Well done - you've taken a lot of stick hereabouts but your reply is good. Hope that the changes you've made make life a litle easier in future.

Best wishes tom
 
Re: Spinnaker

You would be a great source of entertainment for the other vessels if you sailed on the Solent /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif You'd be "au natural" before you had got 100 yards from the marina!

Tony
 
Swanage was very quiet on Friday night and OK even on Saturday night for those of us who stayed /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I saw your boat between the big one and the Rib and was trying to guess which one was you, obviously I got it wrong 'cos 'you' went off driving the Rib! Sorry we didn't get a chance even to shout hi.

Poole on Sunday was just like any other hot Sunday after they opened the asylum doors! The same old pack of PWCs chasing as close as they dare to Condor, the HM hiding behind Sandbanks ferry and turning a blind eye to the antics and for sure they seem to have given up any idea of the speed limit at least outside of the ferry. My son and his girlfriend were out fishing in their small mobo and said idiots were diving in the water in front of them as they went up through Poole Bridge by the Marine Police station/HM Offices...

Plenty of twits all round, including IMO the RS400 that sailed fast through our club marina (it was a PYC Open RS400 meeting) with the asymetric up (speed limit 4kts and no need to return that way ashore anyway) and right between a boat turning into his berth and the berth itself, quite a close thing, but then dinghies are a special case and rules are for the rest of us mere mortals.

Robin
 
The IRPCS - or 'ColRegs' - have the force of international law. That many of 'us' seem to consider them discretionary in our use of the water contributes to the growing hazard of boating, especially in congested waters like Poole Harbour or the Solent. It is not just scraped paintwork or insurance claim forms we are risking - lives are lost though wilful neglect of one's responsibilities to others, including one's own crew and passengers! I think we all have a responsibility to contribute to a better standard.

Interpretation of 'The ColRegs' is complex. The best guide to this by quite a long way - IMHO - is Campbell's 'A Yachtsmans Guide to the Collision Rules', which explains the interpretations lucidly and accessibly. While 'foruminae' may have other preferences, I firmly recommend this to those who want to understand their obligations as well as their 'rights'. The 'interactive trainer' on the RNLI website is also of great help - and it's free. <http://www.rnliseasafety.org.uk/upload/seasafety/e-learning/nav.htm>

It seems to me that several Rules have a relevance in this sort of encounter, among them.....

"Rule 5 : Lookout - Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate to the circumstances so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

Rule 6 : Safe Speed - Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions.

Rule 16 : Action by Give Way Vessel - Every vessel which is directed to keep out of the way of another vessel shall, so far as possible, take early and substantial action to keep well clear.

Rule 17 : Action by Stand On Vessel - a.ii - The ( stand on ) vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.

- b - When, from any cause, the ( stand on ) vessel required to keep her course and speed finds herself so close that collision cannot be avoided by the action of the give-way vessel alone, she shall take such action as will best aid to avoid collision."

My understanding is that every Stand On Vessel encountering a risk of collision has three progressive obligations:
First - Initially, to maintain course and speed ( Rule 17a.i - 'must' ), then....
Second - Permissibly, to take avoiding action ( Rule 17a.ii - 'may' ), then....
Third - Mandatory, to take avoiding action ( Rule 17b - 'must' )

I recall a quote from Eric Hiscock - "Here lies the body of Mike O'Day, who died maintaining his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along, but he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong."

The object is to avoid collisions.....
 
They are not discretionary, I think the reason they are much discussed on here, is the language is not clear.
I'm used to legal language, so doesn't faze me much, but most people would appreciate plain English version?

I suspect, though cannot prove it, that 90% of forumites will not read your post in detail, as it is too long
 
Re: Spinnaker

nice one Micky glad to see you didnt lose your sense of humour after all this flack.

Re giving way to yachts with spinnakers.Flying a kite doesnt turn you into the stand on vessel but if another vessel on port tack cannot positively see which side the mainsail is on because of a spinnaker then they must keep out of the way.

This is not an informal interpretation but covered quite clearly in rule 12(a) (111)

Personally I think to stand on ahead of a yacht flying a spinnaker is not wise in any case.
 
Re: ColRegs in English

1. Don't get in the way of any other boat bigger or less able to change course than you. Dinghy skippers to note.
2. Don't hit any other boat. Dinghy skippers to note.
3. If you have to get out of the way the pecking order is thus, in order of who stays on course:
i Minesweepers (these are best followed!)
ii Dredgers
iii Bl00dy great supertankers
etc
etc
4. Forcing a boat bigger, or less able to change course, than you to run aground will get you a slapping, if you are very lucky. Dinghy skippers to note.
5. Steam has not given way to sail since the 1920s. Dinghy skippers to note

and at the end

If you are hit by someone, its probably your fault too. Unless you are in a dinghy, where it's part of the game:-)

I'm sure that someone out there in forumland can do better than this, how about it Kim, small prize for ColRegs in plain English that fits onto one side of A4, suitable for lamination and use on deck?
 
Marine Casualties ....

I do not know of any Marine Casualty that has had blame 100% fixed on one party. They have all had %age splits in blame .... why ?

The rules clearly state ----- if the action of the give way vessel alone ...... now my words as I can't recite verbatim .... cannot avoid collision the stand vessel shall take such action as necessary to avoid or reduce such collision ....

It annoys me that so many here and other posts state Stand on Vessel / Give way vessel without re-course to the later statement in the rules giving BOTH responsibility to avoid collision.
The rules also say that SPEED can be reduced / altered etc. to avoid collision as well as course ...........

In this case .......... I assume from the limited amount of info that we have effectively a 'power-driven vessel' proceeding along the channel on starboard side at 4kts. A sailing vessel crosing starboard to port .....

Sailing vessel stands on - power driven vessel fails to alter course / speed sufficient to avoid close 1/4's situation... till extremely close.

So my verdict !!!! Is a) power-driven was initially at fault irrespective of blind spots etc. - he knew he was navigating in restricted waters and should have compensated in some way. b) the sailing vessel was later at fault for not complying with the avoiding a close 1/4's situation as indicated above .... if the action of give way vessel alone etc. c) the power driven vessel clearly was not so far over to starboard that another vessel could not be 'further over' - get my meaning ??

As to the power-driven vessel .......... this is irrespective of whether it is a sail-boat or mobo - as he has clearly said he was under engine at time ....

So I would apportion - IF there had been a collision - 70% to power driven, 30% to sail boat .............

/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
Re: Spinnaker

Good on yer Micky.

I echo Tome's sentiments and absolutely agree that it's everyones responsibility to avoid accidents. Sometimes this means holding your course and speed but never to the extent that you hit someone, and once you realise a risk of collission exists, you should only ever hold your course and speed if you have a clear 'exit strategy' that wil remain open through the proceedings!
Have a good season on the water
 
Solent and keeping clear ....

So I am a Certificated Ships Officer .... 17yrs conning ships ..... etc. Nothing special about that and I know that many on the forum are similarly or higher qualified etc. I just state it to be clear before I say next .... (oh and near 40 yrs experience on yachts of most types - Solent and Baltic areas ...)

Bignick - " You guys who give way to everybody had better stay away from the Solent on a summer weekend.
In giving way to somebody you needn't, you could find yourself in the path of another boat who was not expecting you to be there.
You will end up not actually getting anywhere, going round in circles. Worse still, you could cause an accident because of others were assuming you would stand on your course. "

Sorry - but I believe in keeping out of others way .... I will follow the rules but often early - BEFORE it gets silly - alter speed or course if other appears to be 'cutting it fine' ..... certain Charter / School Boats are prats for this ....
I have hd close shaves in channels / open waters etc. enough to undestand what my Teacher said in Marine College .....

Quote " A collision occurs when two boats try to be in same place at same time ........ as long as one decides to NOT be in same place and same time - you'll be fine ....."

His statement was at that time thought daft ............... but it is absolute.

QED
 
Re: Solent and keeping clear ....

mmm - but often the two boats dont try to, they find themselves at ........
normally cos they are not looking out the window, or are busy chatting on the vhf deciding who is going to alter, or assumes the other will alter, or alters too late to avoid, or makes a mistake and a close shave is actually a collision, or one has steering failure - or even is just bloodyminded and uses his boat as a weapon.

so there are quite a few reasons why we hear about collisions, I am sure there are at least 10 times near misses than hits ......

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: Solent and keeping clear ....

As both of us are -old-hat - at sea .... I know we can both agree and you are right ....

But we both know that it is true that many of the near misses etc. are down to plain stupidity !! It makes no benefit to stand on and then have others crying over your grave for it !!!

Cheers
 
\"Here lies the body of Johnny O\'Day

Who died preserving his Right of Way.

He was right, dead right, as he sailed along

But he's just as dead, as if he'd been wrong.!

Close quarters situations should be avoided whenever possible, ideally by an early and substantial alteration of course (by the burdened vessel, if possible) but there are times when this is impossible.

QED.
 
Re: Solent and keeping clear ....

Would like to point out to Tony that i have spent many hours/weeks/months fishing around the Solent area, a piece of cake compared to some of the other places i have been to.
 
Re: Spinnaker

[ QUOTE ]

nice one Micky glad to see you didnt lose your sense of humour after all this flack.
..........................................................................................

Grayham, water off a ducks back mate...Take a lot more to get me going, especially on forums.

Always happy go lucky.

Have a nice day.
 
Oh, so the big one was probably us:
26769462_6f2d2ed489.jpg

I did have a forum flag up, just in case - but its not easy to see on our VHF aerial /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'd have said hi if I'd known you were about - though I was under the boat for a bit de-barnacling.

Was an absolutely glorious evening though - and our first time anchoring at Swanage.

Rick
 
Re: Solent and keeping clear ....

Fully understand what you are saying, and agree with you Nigel.

I was simply making the point that 'give way to everything regardless of Colregs' is not sound practice especially in busy waters. Otherwise, we don't need colregs at all.
 
Bignick - agreed but ...

I was making point that rules do actually say that stand on vessel can and should take such action as necessary to avoid collision if action of give way vessel alone appears insufficient ....

When the rules changed in the 70's there was a lot of comment about ambiguity and relaxation of some points from the old .... which has come true ... many of the posts and questions literally sit right on those ...

There are many strange bits in the IRPCS - but that is for another thread if and when .... but lets say that they are broader based than just stand-on and give-way ... and those that stick adamantly to that will come a cropper - we are talking humans - well some are !! - controlling boats, not robots or machines .....
 
Re: Bignick - agreed but ...

"I was making point that rules do actually say that stand on vessel can and should take such action as necessary to avoid collision if action of give way vessel alone appears insufficient"

Of course you are absolutely right.

The bit I find difficult is deciding at what point to move from standing on to giving way. Particularly so if the action of the give way vessel is so insufficient as to be imperceptible.

Clearly there must be some statement that you can't simply hit someone because they are the give way vessel, but equally this rule can have the effect of allowing people to virtually ignore the other rules on right of way relying on others ultimately giving way to save a collision. (This is the case, right or wrong, for the defence of the original posting.)

Although between sensible people there is no issue, the end game of this is then simply bigger boat, or more arrogant skipper, or more ignorant skipper has right of way.

Which is the sort of chaotic situation regulations are there to avoid.
 
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