Close quarter handling, what's harder

[Ianj68]

After reading a thread about handling single engined sports cruisers I began thinking of a few recent incidents which in each case has involved someone from the sailing fraternity. By the way this isn't meant to be a stinkpot vs raggie rant, i just want to get the views of others.

My boat is a Searay 315 so 29ft roughly, single engine no bow thruster. I was chatting to a neighbour who owns a 32ft yacht. He was telling me how close quarter handling is far harder for him and that I have it easy as I have much more control. Second incident occurred in Yarmouth week last Sunday. I was rafted outside of a 28ft Yacht and the owner asked wished to leave. He once again was of the opinion that his job of getting away from the pontoon was going to be much harder than mine. He made the comment that it's easy of you guys as you can just manoeuvre side ways. I thought yes, I can go sideways but it wouldn't necessarily be intentional as my boat has the handling characteristics of a beach ball on water when it's windy and the canvases are up.

Finally, Port Solent lock on Sunday, once again very blowy with the wind swirling about so quite difficult to read. I was the only mobo in the lock, along with 6 other yachts. One of the yacht skippers told me to head down the middle of the lock and raft up in between two yachts to make more room. I refused on account of having quite a bit more beam that most of the others and getting into such a tight spot would have been pretty tricky and I genuinely felt it would be easier for one of the smaller boats to do it.

Now I'm of the opinion that a sportsboat like mine can be a bit of a handful in certain conditions, and considering that I've helmed quite a few yachts in my time ranging from 32 - 66 ft a yacht just seems to be less prone to being buffeted about at low speed.

Is this a case of me getting it a bit wrong or do you think that our sailing cousins don't quite understand how things on our side of the fence?

Ian

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yotties dont understand the effects of windage on motor boats. Yes we have steerable sterndrives and maybe 2 engines but they have a sodding great keel sticking them to the water and no superstructure to catch the wind. Also, from my observations, most yachts (not all) go in a straight line when reversing unlike mobos which go where they please. Most mobos also have much higher side decks than yachts which makes fending off and line handling more difficult. And you can do a lot more damage with a mobo as they have higher in gear idling speeds; my boat idles at 7 kts which is faster than most yachts can ever go.
I dont think you can say that mobos are easier to handle than yachts or vice versa. Each has it's handling strengths and weaknesses

 

[Wiggo]

I'd agree with you, Ian, that they're lumping all mobos together. Now, with twin shafts and a bowthruster, I can indeed make the boat go sideways (which is a neat trick, and one that can really pee the audience off when you get into a tight berth with no dramas). But a single engine soap dish with no bowthruster will be more of a handful than a yacht, because a) it's probably got more windage, b) it's not got a sodding great keel to help keep it planted in the water and c) it's generally swinging a biggish prop that giver very predictable prop walk that can be used to great effect manouevring. OTOH, you do have the advantage of vectorable thrust when going astern...

 

[gjgm]

After watching a yacht take several atempts to get into an empty berth at the w/e, maybe he is right !

 

[Nautorius]

Yotties dont understand the effects of windage on motor boats. Yes we have steerable sterndrives and maybe 2 engines but they have a sodding great keel sticking them to the water and no superstructure to catch the wind. Also, from my observations, most yachts (not all) go in a straight line when reversing unlike mobos which go where they please. Most mobos also have much higher side decks than yachts which makes fending off and line handling more difficult. And you can do a lot more damage with a mobo as they have higher in gear idling speeds; my boat idles at 7 kts which is faster than most yachts can ever go.
I dont think you can say that mobos are easier to handle than yachts or vice versa. Each has it's handling strengths and weaknesses

OK,

I am definitely qualified to answer this one! Firstly Sailboats do not go straight back. They have prop walk to Port or Starboard. Mine pulls to Port about 30 degrees off centre so not easy to handle. If you imagine reversing dead centre into a 15m med berth that will put you about 3 m off centre at a very strange angle.....and we have about 30cm eigther side so a lot of skill and angle of entry is required (unless you have a double berth) or you take a large chunk out of your neighbour.

Secondly sail boats do have a large keel which means although they do not move around as much, once they do start moving at close quarters it is difficult to change direction. Imagine trying to push a piece of sheet metal 1.85m x 2m against the water. Even with a Bow thruster you have to use the keel as a pivot point which takes a lot of skill.

Thirdly most sail boats do not have bow thrusters as they are expensive extras and never work (Sail boats too damp!).

Any power boat with twin engines even without a bow thruster will be a lot more responsive and easier to handle. Yes you do get larger windage but you have faster response times on the controls. If the boat is only single then it is a lot harder, but you have the power to weight ratio in advantage. My boat about 10,000kg displacement and has 54HP! Same size powerboat about 12,000KG displacement and 560HP! Big difference.

Lastly we have a large sail structure that catches the wind! It may not look it but the boom with sail on plus a 45ft mast catches a lot of wind! My boat will sail at 2kts without any sail up in a F5 or more!

However, most raggies do think all power boats behave like they are on Pod drives and do not understand that it is not as easy as it looks! Different power boats behave in different ways.

Having handled all manner of single and twin power and sail boats from 17-50ft I can say that if you know what you are doing they are all a dodle to handle. Get it wrong and Crunch! I prefer the response times on Power boats but prefer the sure footed response on a sail boat.

No excuse for bad Raggie Vs Mobo behaviour though...

Cheers

Paul

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

OK,

I am definitely qualified to answer this one! Firstly Sailboats do not go straight back. They have prop walk to Port or Starboard. Mine pulls to Port about 30 degrees off centre so not easy to handle. If you imagine reversing dead centre into a 15m med berth that will put you about 3 m off centre at a very strange angle.....and we have about 30cm eigther side so a lot of skill and angle of entry is required (unless you have a double berth) or you take a large chunk out of your neighbour.

l

I spend a lot of time in my Med mooring watching sail boats going backwards in fairways and reversing into moorings. Most of those are driven by charterers so it can't be that difficult or maybe Beneteaus go backwards as well as they go forwards. And no way has any yacht got the same kind of windage and so little in the water as a mobo
I've driven sailboats too and everything happens more slowly which is a big advantage

 

[Searush]

I think the side decks issue is important too. I can detail crew (if I have any) to any part of the boat to fend off if I get it wrong. Or even do it myself if solo. On some smaller MoBos, crew can't even get to the foredeck, never mind the sides. This came up in the dingly dangly fender thread.

My keel & skeg mean that once I get her moving, she tends to be fairly predictable - although the bows always blow off when into the wind.

 

[PaulGooch]

I spend a lot of time in my Med mooring watching sail boats going backwards in fairways and reversing into moorings. Most of those are driven by charterers so it can't be that difficult or maybe Beneteaus go backwards as well as they go forwards. And no way has any yacht got the same kind of windage and so little in the water as a mobo
I've driven sailboats too and everything happens more slowly which is a big advantage

The sailboats around my berth also reverse between the rows of boats then into their berths (those that moor stern too). This is simply not possible in my single engined, shaft drive mobo. If i'm really lucky, which is almost never, it might go backwards in a straight line. Mostly it creeps quite quickly to port, due to the prop walk. Tiny amounts of Easterly wind will blow me off the finger. With no bow thruster, it's not an easy boat to manoeuvre close quarters.

 

[duncan]

I spend a lot of time in my Med mooring watching sail boats going backwards in fairways and reversing into moorings. Most of those are driven by charterers so it can't be that difficult or maybe Beneteaus go backwards as well as they go forwards. And no way has any yacht got the same kind of windage and so little in the water as a mobo
I've driven sailboats too and everything happens more slowly which is a big advantage

generally this is because -

1. you can't stop the yacht and than reverse it - by the time you have steerage it could be pointing anywhere (and most likely will have been blown into something!)

2. they need to go in backwards 'cos it's the only way to get on and off.

the 50.5 I had in Turkey had terrible windage with the forward sections getting blown off very quickly. to get into a (any) berth in some posts I had to reverse all the way in from outside

fin keels are pretty well planted going in reverse, and a doddle going forwards. where the mobo scores highly is that you can start and stop very quickly - thrust to weight is massive relative to nearly all sail boats.

 

[kashurst]

I'm qualified and experienced on power and sail boats, and have driven a few of each. Each boat design has issues. sail boats with fin keels are usually easy to handle and reverse fairly straight. long keel ones can be a bit of a handful as they don't do reverse well at all.

twin engine power boats - sport boats easier than flybridges because of windage. smaller single engine power boats in any kind of wind I find very difficult as they blow about.

Depending on wind/tide etc one design or the other will be easier on any given day - but a lot of sail boat skippers have never moored a big powerboat and assume everything will be easier because of the engines. Having watched quite a few sail boat skippers some of them are rubbish boat handlers and are just looking for an excuse.

 

[asteven221]

Having experience in both and FWIW I would say that every boat model is different - but then that's obvious. My current mobo has both bow and stern thrusters and twin engines. No wind and it's as easy as it get's to berth. In a good blow on the beam then it's a different animal altogether and the thrusters are only slightly useful. Indeed they can be a liabilty if you rely on them to get you out a hole and find they are useless - and it's too late! Add the delay of electronic controls and you have to think fast!

Despite what a previous poster says, Beneteaus (well at least my Oceanis 423) certainly didn't go straight when going astern. Nope - it kicked to port like you wouldn't believe, but it was a case of getting used to it and taking advantage of it. I berthed single handedly - no bother. It also had a bowthruster which was a help, but again only up to a certain wind point - and yes the bow could certainly catch the wind big time making life difficult and the bowthruster pointless.

A previous poster made the comparison to 54hp in a yacht and 560hp on a mobo, with the implication that should make the mobo easier. In fact I think it makes no difference whatsoever and in the wrong hands makes the mobo more difficult to handle and potentially dangerous. Unleashing 560hp to make a position change often results in having to counter the situation with an opposite and compensating equally agressive application of the throttle. That can lead to a calm contrallable situation rapidly getting out of hand.

I can only imagine that a single engine, relatively light mobo without a thruster must be the most difficult of all combinations to handle close quarters - especially in any wind! Best of luck 'cause I think you will need it. IMHO if a raggie gives you stick - hand over the helm to them and tell them to try it! I bet they'll then change their thinking.

One thing I have noticed about yachts and mobos though. Mobos in general seem to be berthed by a husband and wife team with little drama most of the time - even 50 footers, however yachties invariably get into all sorts of pickles. Even when it's flat calm. The size of the pickle seems directionally proportional to the number of crew onboard and the clothes they are wearing. From what I have observed on many occassions - it appears that the more "pro" crew and the more matching sets of Mustos, Gill's or HH on board - the bigger pickle they manage to get themselves into!!!

I think at the end of the day any boat can be a pig to handle in certain situations, which let's face it, is invariably in a fast flow and in a blow. It also makes it fun towatch when your all tied up and relaxing withr a beer!!!!! Until of course it's your turn to make an a£$e fo yerself.

 

[ricky_s]

One thing I have noticed about yachts and mobos though. Mobos in general seem to be berthed by a husband and wife team with little drama most of the time - even 50 footers, however yachties invariably get into all sorts of pickles. Even when it's flat calm. The size of the pickle seems directionally proportional to the number of crew onboard and the clothes they are wearing. From what I have observed on many occassions - it appears that the more "pro" crew and the more matching sets of Mustos, Gill's or HH on board - the bigger pickle they manage to get themselves into!!!

You can say that again. When in a marina, if the boat coming to moor next to me is a sail boat I make sure I am there to get his ropes and SWMBO has the roaming fender ready!

 

[Searush]

Any tide at all should make berthing easier as you can ferry glide sideways or head into it & use propwash & tide for steerage.

. . . But wind is a different matter. ​

 

[westernman]

I have a long keeler and some things are difficult.

She will reverse in a straight line, but only when doing at least 5 knots.
From stationary to 5 knots in reverse takes a good 400-500m a full power with the feathering prop. Stopping again takes about 300m.
Before getting to 5knots in reverse she will go where ever she likes. There is nothing you can do to persuade her otherwise. I.e you need a piece of water which is very wide.

So reversing down a fairway is not practical.

Also turning against the wind from stationary is only possible in light winds. F3 is the limit. So in a tight fairway I cannot turn against the wind unless I am moving a bit. But then I need to stop in the width of the fairway which is only a little longer than the boat.... So in order to get the boat backwards into its berth is delicate to say the least and usually relies on attaching a bow line to the up wind post of the berth and motoring forward against it to bring the bows up into the wind using the propwash over the rudder to place the stern as required. This is repeated as often as needed in order to get in. In strongish winds takes may be 8 or more operations.

The wind will blow the bows around very very quickly. So much so, that we usually leave the berth with a bow line to keep the bows pointing the right way.

My impression is tha mobo's are just a little easier as the will go bodily sideways in the wind (more so than a raggie) and will turn much less.......
This makes it easier to get properly aligned with the hole you are aiming for.

Just turn until aligned, wait until the winds pushes you down to the berth, then a quick burst of power and you are in.

The bow sprit scares the mobos ****less on the other side of the fairway

 

[powerskipper]

great

Some brilliant replies.
some thing I have found.

you can ferry gild using wind, it can be incredibly useful if you have a twitchy boat, whether it power or sail. Go and try it. strong wind and open area to start with and play.


I took a little 20 something ft Doral I think, from the yacht haven to Salters in Poole yesterday. Its not that far but had a few 6 foot waves in harbour. Wind blowing across Salters as I was going down to get her lifted. Just chugged her down with her bow slightly up wind, she behave beautifully, and put her in front of sling area. A very hight sided boat with all the covers up so loads of windage and a single out drive. It does work. try it..

 

[ricky_s]

I took a little 20 something ft Doral I think, from the yacht haven to Salters in Poole yesterday. Its not that far but had a few 6 foot waves in harbour. Wind blowing across Salters as I was going down to get her lifted. Just chugged her down with her bow slightly up wind, she behave beautifully, and put her in front of sling area. A very hight sided boat with all the covers up so loads of windage and a single out drive. It does work. try it..

Show off!

 

[powerskipper]

show off! :d

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

 

[RobHom]

I know that sailboats have their quirks....lived on one for long enough, and it always backed to starboard....always!!

Our trawler is a twin screw and I can back her and adjust her as needed, HOWEVER....if the wind is really kicking up and gusting and we have all the canvas up...it can get interesting. I have no thrusters, so its all done by manipulating the engines....

I used to have 30' power boat with a Bravo 2 outdrive and she could be a handfull in certain situations....

Moving around in a lock can be a challenge....not only because of currents but also how you are affected by the wind going in and leaving the lock....

Frankly...as my current boat weighs in at 38,000 pounds dry....I would not put myself between two sailboats in a lock... I would prefer to be on a bulkhead or next to a boat of equal size....

Regardless of the type of boat...or size...we need to be careful and consider the other boats when we are in motion or locking through....and all the rest of the time as well....

 

[gazzogs]

Have seen some rubbish berthing by both yacht and motor boat skippers, myself included. It's a matter of reading all the signs and trying to act in advance accordingly...........easy to say, less easy to do. The worst culprits are the motor boaters that only seem to have full throttle ahead and astern when trying to berth, wife and myself recently pinned against a boat trying to help some-one berth with heavy handed throttle control!

 

[Ianj68]

Lots of interesting answers and it pretty much confirmed my thoughts. In my case my boat is a handful, as I said 31ft from tip to toe on a single with no thruster. I've had it long enough to learn its characteristics and to work with them. However, if for example correcting the effect of a gust of wind on the bow takes me two actions requiring say 8ft and the space I'm given in the lock is 5ft It's going to end in tears