Clipper Whoops

[mrming]

Yes, well, we live in commercial times and even adventure is packaged and sold as a product. "Races" round the world by boat, commercial ascents of Everest ... it's the glamping mindset.

The Everest analogy is interesting. There’s a commercial business around taking climbers of varying experience levels up Everest, and ocassionally people are injured or die. Climbing Everest is well known as a high risk challenge and people decide for themselves if they want to take part.

Can anyone familiar with the Clipper report on how seriously this point is made to the paying participants?

If the organisers clearly say - “you’re paying to go ocean racing and you may be seriously injured or die”, then people can make up their own minds.

I would also be interested to know if they incorporate previous accidents into their official training programme so that participants can be aware of what happened, why, and what has since been implemented to lessen the risk of it happening again.

 

[lw395]

IMHO the Everest analogy is deeply flawed. Crossing oceans in a well found Cat Zero boat is not inherently very dangerous.
These are commercial vessels and we have a whole bunch of laws and a government department dedicated to making it not very dangerous.
Even if you look at proper racing in less regulated boats, it is relatively safe.
'Characters' like Tony Bullimore don't on the whole end up dead.
Climbing, real-road motorcycle racing and Paragliding are different.

We're not talking about people getting killed or boats failing in freak storms or eaten by Kraken, we are talking about accidents which are avoidable by the kind of basic seamanship which should be expected of a Dazed Kipper.

 

[co256]

IMHO the Everest analogy is deeply flawed. Crossing oceans in a well found Cat Zero boat is not inherently very dangerous.

You don’t have a humble opinion anymore than anyone else.

These are commercial vessels and we have a whole bunch of laws and a government department dedicated to making it not very dangerous.

Anyone going to sea in a Cat Zero boat governed by laws and government departments who believes they are immune from the dangers of the sea is a naive fool.

Even if you look at proper racing in less regulated boats, it is relatively safe.
'Characters' like Tony Bullimore don't on the whole end up dead.
Climbing, real-road motorcycle racing and Paragliding are different.


We're not talking about people getting killed or boats failing in freak storms or eaten by Kraken, we are talking about accidents which are avoidable by the kind of basic seamanship which should be expected of a Dazed Kipper.

Now, with regard to this last paragraph, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[savageseadog]

IMHO:

The great outdoors isn't a playground
Three weeks training is no substitute for years at sea
Some people are inherently lacking in safety consciousness. and common sense, does the fact they pay for a place override the lack of suitability?
I think its too easy for experienced sailors to assume that because it came naturally to them the crew will cope.
I'm inherently against the "Bear Grylls" school of outdoors
The grounding shouldn't have happened with a fairly minimal amount of competence and planning.

The use of electronic vector charts is, as already pointed out probably to blame. The same thing occurred on a recent ROW race, I forget the details.

 

[awol]

The use of electronic vector charts is, as already pointed out probably to blame. The same thing occurred on a recent ROW race, I forget the details.

I doubt it. Vestas hit a reef in the middle of the ocean that was invisible on the chart package being used. CV24 hit Africa which was probably visible on all scales and packages. If anyone is running a book I'd put a couple of bob on an apparently safe and prudent course change after passing a lighthouse, just they chose the wrong lighthouse.

 

[thecommander]

It's very insulting to suggest these people are simply paying passengers on some sort of holiday....
No, they are CREW members onboard an ocean going vessel....
and they come home with alot more sailing experience than many of us on this forum....

 

[Seajet]

Well this crew are certainly coming home with sailing experience, snag is it's the sort of experience they and I / we would rather prefer to avoid let alone pay for !

 

[JumbleDuck]

It's very insulting to suggest these people are simply paying passengers on some sort of holiday....
No, they are CREW members onboard an ocean going vessel....

There is nothing at all wrong with starting off as a passenger and training on the job, as long as the system recognises that some of the crew at any rate will have very little experience.

 

[capnsensible]

There is nothing at all wrong with starting off as a passenger and training on the job, as long as the system recognises that some of the crew at any rate will have very little experience.

Do you think their 4 unit, 25 day training package is insufficient, then?

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/crew/training

Following your review, you can set them straight here:

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/apply

Good luck! :encouragement:

 

[bitbaltic]

and they come home with alot more sailing experience than many of us on this forum....

Having been offshore racing with at least two Clipper circumnavigators, I would dispute that. One was great at sail trim and nothing else. He managed to repeatedly misread a GRIB file and insisted, confidently, on a wind shift 180 degrees out during a discussion on tactics. Bringing the boat alongside he got off onto the pontoon without even a line in his hands because he was ‘um, scoping it out’. The boat just drifted off. Complete liability. The other one was good at cooking and put in the worst effort at driving the boat in a MOB practice that you have ever seen. Beeing quite picky on two individuals but the point is that sitting in a boat which is on the same tack for a thousand miles does not necessarily result in a wide skill set. From what i’ve seen it seems to produce an excellent set of narrow skills and inconsistent seamanship in the round.

 

[bitbaltic]

We're not talking about people getting killed or boats failing in freak storms or eaten by Kraken, we are talking about accidents which are avoidable by the kind of basic seamanship which should be expected of a Dazed Kipper.

Best point made so far.

 

[lw395]

It's very insulting to suggest these people are simply paying passengers on some sort of holiday....
No, they are CREW members onboard an ocean going vessel....
and they come home with alot more sailing experience than many of us on this forum....

Having met a sample of them, I disagree.
Some of them are very good.
Some of them I'd rather not be on a boat with.
5000 miles experience of being the tenth man on a boat doesn't make you a reasonable all-round sailor.
There's only so much actual sailing needed to cross an ocean.
Far too many people on the boat.
Far too easy for a couple of dominant characters to do all the interesting stuff.
Far too likely that one or two people will demand a lot of attention from the skipper.

 

[awol]

Do you think their 4 unit, 25 day training package is insufficient, then?

https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/crew/training

Hmmm, doesn't seem to be anything on how to avoid big ships or continents!

From Day One you will build teams, learn the ropes, cook, clean and race. On top of that you’ll learn the basics of yacht maintenance and management, racing tactics, survival at sea and weather routing. Above all, the most important skill you’ll learn is being part of a multi-disciplined, high performance team that will function in every condition that Mother Nature can throw at it.

 

[co256]

I imagine the skipper will get all the blame for this one, I just can’t see it any other way regardless of any mitigating circumstances...

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.......

...... Above all, the most important skill you’ll learn is being part of a multi-disciplined, high performance team that will function in every condition that Mother Nature can throw at it. ...

I wonder how they train for meteor impact.

Being serious, the organisation does deserve the highest level of criticism, as does any organisation that causes a serious (high potential consequence) incident. Bad luck or a stupid organisation that can not learn from its mistakes, I don't know? However, as their remit is to make profit, then bad news such as this might make them think again if it affects sales of berths. I think the Challenge Business had a better approach to safety than Clipper, but that is just a perception.

 

[capnsensible]

Hmmm, doesn't seem to be anything on how to avoid big ships or continents!

Skippers job.

 

[lw395]

The skipper's job is to run the boat at top level.

That implies a certain amount of delegation?
Same as any manager, you have to take responsibility for your minions, monitor what they do etc.
But if you don't have the power to hire and fire, you're not really in charge anyway.

 

[capnsensible]

The skipper's job is to run the boat at top level.
.

Avoiding big ships and continents does that.

 

[lw395]

Avoiding big ships and continents does that.

It's a start.
But the skipper is not going to be on watch 24/7, so he needs to make things happen without being directly involved.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Do you think their 4 unit, 25 day training package is insufficient, then?

Nope. I was mislead by a reference to a shorter training period here. 25 days on the water is pretty impressive. So how did the culture of poor tether use arise?