Clipper Ventures declares war on MCA & MAIB?

[dunedin]

Not literally, but an amazing development demanding an independent inquiry ...
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/220819/Clipper-Ventures-calls-for-independent-inquiry

 

[scotty123]

Not literally, but an amazing development demanding an independent inquiry ...
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/220819/Clipper-Ventures-calls-for-independent-inquiry

If there is any possibility of a divergence of opinion/facts, then why not an independent inquiry?

 

[capnsensible]

Well thats gonna put a big black cat amongst the usual Clipper hating pigeons on here!

 

[Talulah]

I’m with Clipper on this. The Cheeki Rafiki report was inaccurate and biased.

 

[[3889]]

Is there perhaps the possibility of bias by the author of the Y&Y article?
https://au.linkedin.com/in/morgan-kasmarik-49200a20

 

[Blue Sunray]

I found myself at a dinner this summer with someone who did three (IIRC) legs of the clipper race in 2015. His views on their attitude to safety I found rather shocking and certainly convinced me that I would not want anyone I cared for to take part. What he said I'm afraid reflected the, what I had previously considered rather alarmist, accusations of profit before safety raised by some in previous discussions on here. Tellingly he had felt moved to put his concerns in writing to RKJ after the event and although he received an acknowledgment of their receipt, that was all the response that he ever got.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Is there perhaps the possibility of bias by the author of the Y&Y article?
https://au.linkedin.com/in/morgan-kasmarik-49200a20

Wow. Just a bit.

 

[Tomaret]

Is there perhaps the possibility of bias by the author of the Y&Y article?
https://au.linkedin.com/in/morgan-kasmarik-49200a20

Pretty poor editorial practice on the part of Y&Y not to mention the connection so that the reader can identify potential conflicts of interest.

 

[Sandy]

Well thats gonna put a big black cat amongst the usual Clipper hating pigeons on here!

As somebody who has critisiesd Clipper in the past, I've still not had a reply about the safety engineering question I asked them, it will be interesting to see if they can make a challange. Who is going to run the inquiry and what benifit would it give? Several people have lost their lives on the event. While sailing is risky you can mitigate risk, as we all do.

 

[Tin Tin]

I’m with Clipper on this. The Cheeki Rafiki report was inaccurate and biased.

Care to expand on this?
What points in particular were you thinking of?

 

[dunedin]

Is there perhaps the possibility of bias by the author of the Y&Y article?
https://au.linkedin.com/in/morgan-kasmarik-49200a20

Surely it was clear it was a Clipper Press release

 

[Resolution]

I found myself at a dinner this summer with someone who did three (IIRC) legs of the clipper race in 2015. His views on their attitude to safety I found rather shocking and certainly convinced me that I would not want anyone I cared for to take part. What he said I'm afraid reflected the, what I had previously considered rather alarmist, accusations of profit before safety raised by some in previous discussions on here. Tellingly he had felt moved to put his concerns in writing to RKJ after the event and although he received an acknowledgment of their receipt, that was all the response that he ever got.

Well one of my sailing friends is about to participate the next race that starts next month. He has been on countless training outings and been subjected to a MASSIVE amount of operating procedures, in which safety figures very highly. I really think it is time some of us old f*rt armchair sailors woke up to the possibility that the Clipper organisation is attempting something quite extraordinarily positive for sailing. Maybe we should be proud of what they are doing?

 

[Neeves]

Lost in the arguments is the simple fact that a safety clip failed, of which there are demonstrably better designs used by other organisations, and as a result of this clip failure a man died.

The fact the investigating organisations might have erred is questionable - but their errors have not caused any deaths. The fact a man died, possibly prevenatable, is unforgivable.

Hiding behind - it met specification - is simply an excuse, they should be using the best kit available.

Symptomatic of the issues - they still use Delta anchors the RNLI have moved with the times, what stops Clipper.

I admire the concept, of Clipper, and think it needs all the support it can get - but that does not mean they have got it right, yet. Too may deaths in my book.

Jonathan

 

[ShinyShoe]

Surely it was clear it was a Clipper Press release

No.

It was clear it was initiated by their release. It was not clear the article was actually written by them.

There is something odd about this. My understanding is that MAIB investigations are shared with stakeholders in advance. If you believe there are factual inaccuracies you report them then. If they did that why didn't MAIB fix them? If they didn't, why didn't they?

I do think MAIB have a reputation for obsession about certain things.

 

[Neeves]

Maybe Clipper should have obsessions as well.

They suggest they corrected the issues that the MAIB found earlier - why was their anything to correct in the first place - they have a team of professional yachtsmen a sailing legend as CEO, profession skippers - does, or did, no-one check.

Being critical of the MAIB does not appear to enhance Clipper's status.

It is all very well practising safety procedures until they are second nature - but the training is flawed if the kit is not adequate.

Sorry to introduce anchors, but knowing that is the choice, knowing there are better hooks on the market, knowing they have been corrected previously (MAIB) I wonder what else slips through the net.

Obfuscation comes to mind.

Jonathan

 

[Tintin]

MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

Those that know Clipper know that safety is paramount, and that the recent Maib report seemed to be inaccurate.

False comments, especially about the presence of a ship 60nm away, and an official lieing to the family about this, have led to a lot of grief.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/08/09/integrity-of-investigation-questioned/

 

[JumbleDuck]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

Those that know Clipper know that safety is paramount ...

Quite apart from the deaths and the grounding, this is never true. If safety really was paramount, everybody involved would stay at home - as would all sailors, climbers, horse riders, glider pilots, parachutists, cyclists and probably gardeners. Those hoes can give a nasty cut. In reality it's always a balance between safety and fun.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

Those that know Clipper know that safety is paramount, and that the recent Maib report seemed to be inaccurate.

False comments, especially about the presence of a ship 60nm away, and an official lieing to the family about this, have led to a lot of grief.

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/08/09/integrity-of-investigation-questioned/

As per my post above, not in the view of the former participant to whom I spoke. Having spoken to him I did a bit of admittedly Q&D analysis, one was statistically less likely to be killed as a member of the British Forces in Afghanistan at the height of the fighting out there than as a participant on a recent Clipper race, and one got paid for that privilege rather than visa versa.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Re: MAIB report seriously flawed - Clipper

Quite apart from the deaths and the grounding, this is never true. If safety really was paramount, everybody involved would stay at home - as would all sailors, climbers, horse riders, glider pilots, parachutists, cyclists and probably gardeners. Those hoes can give a nasty cut. In reality it's always a balance between safety and fun.

:encouragement:

 

[dunedin]

Lost in the arguments is the simple fact that a safety clip failed, of which there are demonstrably better designs used by other organisations, and as a result of this clip failure a man died.

That is so true. The core issue, the fact that the tether clips fail at such a low force when pulled from the side seems to have been pushed out of sight by Clipper, MAIB and MCA.
I had hoped to see all clips on sale now moved to a design which was more robust to this type of side pull.
Instead it has been suggested users should ensure this side load cannot happen - but boat decks have lots of fittings, like the mooring cleat in that case, and most MOB don’t get to choose their manner and trajectory of sudden departure!