Clean your tanks before Ostende
- Thread starter bendyone
- Start date
sailorman
Well-Known Member
bendyone
Well-Known Member
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Otter
Well-Known Member
It's an absolute dogs' breakfast. Probably done so they can throw their hands up in exasperation and just cancel the fuel duty relief.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Not sure I agree. The derogation ended and our Government had to act. The correct procedure at the end of derogation as far as the European Commission was concerned was that leisure users should not be able to use marked fuel oil which in the Commission's view is fuel with a rebated duty. That's why it has the marking. However, the marinas made it clear that keeping red for fishing vessels and white for leisure users was uneconomic and wasn't going to happen. So the Government said that it was ok for leisure users to use red provided they paid the full duty or if they used it for heating and cooking as well they would permit a 40/60 split on duty. However, unlike the directive for road fuels where individual Governments can permit dyed diesel to be used 'normally' in exceptional circumstances, there is no such clause in the marine legislation. It's a typical British compromise that works over here because we have that type of approach - ie no Constitution and therefore much less codification. However, on the continent everything is done by Codes. If it not permitted by Code you can't do it rather than our 'unless it is prohibited by law' approach. So the moment a country working (maybe zealously) to the Code sees dyed diesel it knows that that is not permitted. It is immaterial to Belgium whether full tax has been paid or not - there is, by Directive, a EU prohibition on the use of dyed diesel in leisure yachts - you can have paid twice the required duty but still fall foul of the Directive. The Government cannot do anything. If there is any criticism that could be leveled against them, it's that the British compromise they put in place could never survive and we should have been using white diesel for the last two years or should have been using this period to do the change over.
Cantata
Well-Known Member
What you say sounds eminent common sense.
However...
Here am I with 90L of red in my tank, plenty for a whole season, and I am planning to go to France.
Do I trust that the French are sensible enough to recognise that their coastal economies will suffer hugely if the Brits stop coming - I think so, I hope so.
But I think that something more precise is needed for the longer term than yet another fudge. Set a year, one or two in the future, when when we must stop using red in UK. Encourage/help marina/harbour suppliers to change over to white during that period. Get agreement from neighbouring EU countries that they will tolerate red or pink in tanks until that date.
However...
Here am I with 90L of red in my tank, plenty for a whole season, and I am planning to go to France.
Do I trust that the French are sensible enough to recognise that their coastal economies will suffer hugely if the Brits stop coming - I think so, I hope so.
But I think that something more precise is needed for the longer term than yet another fudge. Set a year, one or two in the future, when when we must stop using red in UK. Encourage/help marina/harbour suppliers to change over to white during that period. Get agreement from neighbouring EU countries that they will tolerate red or pink in tanks until that date.
MoodySabre
Well-Known Member
Cantata
Well-Known Member
Well, I'll live in hope for now, Roger. The local French economies would be hit hard if we all stayed away; their local councils have a lot of clout and could tell the gendarmerie (or would it be les Douanes) to leave us alone or else...
Vara
Well-Known Member
I'm with Tillergirl and Cantata, the French do seem to quite pragmatic re regulation and their local economy.
So still going to France but have ruled out Belgium until the smoke clears.
The economy of Northern France is really taking a hammering at the moment and they won't want to do anything that will make things any worse.
So still going to France but have ruled out Belgium until the smoke clears.
The economy of Northern France is really taking a hammering at the moment and they won't want to do anything that will make things any worse.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, the tumble weed was blowing through Calais last time we were there just before Christmas (by car). We were welcomed.
I have to say I fancy St Valery this year if I can avoid inconvenient bouts of work. In fact I fancy Le Cretoy although taking the ground there looks a bit uneven.
MY littlebirchwoo
Well-Known Member
90L - I have 1400! Sadly the Belgians stated last year in a diplomatic reply that they would fine and impound vessels that had marked diesel in the tanks or traces of such in their filters. This action is purely to prevent the 'government' being liable for any infringement of EU policy - by shoving the onus on us.
A couple of useful posts:
Firstly on the introduction of this legislative proposal
http://eastcoastboating.co.uk/wordpress/?p=855
And forgive me if I am lakesailoring and havn't noticed it posted above, the RYA's rebuttle:
http://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/RYAchallengesHMRCproposals.aspx
sailorman
Well-Known Member
dj43
Well-Known Member
when we must stop using red in UK. Encourage/help marina/harbour suppliers to change over to white during that period. Get agreement from neighbouring EU countries that they will tolerate red or pink in tanks until that date.[/QUOTE said:
sailorman
Well-Known Member
wingdiver
Well-Known Member
Some of us bunker as much as 150 lts you know
Some of us have 1600 litres in total (not a mobo either)!! Are we supposed to ditch that just to be able to go to Holland/Belgium/France or go and risk a fine of €4 a litre? Not a chance until someone somewhere gets this sorted and with certainty.
Also, how will any UK boat ever be free of traces of the dye contained in red diesel? It stains every part of the system - that's the idea of the dye being put in the fuel in the first place.
So, even filling with white, having completely emptied and cleaned the entre system/replaced the filters etc, it can still be traced. Would the NL/BEL/FR authorities still be happy? Who knows. As I said, until there is absolute certainty, we will be staying this side of the channel/N Sea.
Maybe that's why the UK government hasn't done the right thing <darn those conspiracy theories>
Elemental
Well-Known Member
The marker doesn't have to be completely removed. The EU have specified the marking regime such that fuel has to marked at 6 to 9 mg/l (the UK marks at 9mg/l) with a marker that is detectable at 0.12mg/l
Dilutions below that level are considered undetectable/unreliable and are unenforceable. The implication is thgat you have to dilute your red with white at a ratio of 1:75. Still difficult to achieve (about 3 years at my normal usage...). Mobo's will get there much more quickly I guess...
wingdiver
Well-Known Member
Getting down to a level of one litre of red to 75 of white would take me about three years or so using 500-700 litres a year (includes heating/cooking).
That's all assuming I can get white from a marina somewhere convenient and that it is the right sort of diesel.
What an almighty c**k up as usual.
That's all assuming I can get white from a marina somewhere convenient and that it is the right sort of diesel.
What an almighty c**k up as usual.
photodog
Lord High Commander of Upper Broughton and Gunthor
maby
Well-Known Member
The c**k up is the RYA's fault for pressuring HMRC to allow us to ignore the EU rules. We had a period of several years to adjust, along with Holland, France and Belgium who all did it. The RYA and BMF pestered HMRC to ignore the impending rule changes and exploit some sloppy wording in the directives to justify turning a blind eye. Now it's caught up with us. The commission is not going to let it drop - we will be banned from using red diesel anywhere, even in UK waters - even now, the RYA insist on trying to overturn the new guidelines rather than working for us to finally secure white diesel supplies at the dock side.