Chinese autopilots

Laysula - unreliability is one thing, and yes there are the odd products which suffer regardless of oversight. As I said earlier, it is the combination of lack of support, spare parts availability and general willingness to accept responsibility.

Yes, I have had the odd issue with Raymarine, but the support has been good, no problems with parts even on legacy products, well written manuals and willingness to protect brand reputation. These are all characteristics sadly lacking from the vast majority of solo Chinese manufacturers - I am sure there is the odd exception, I just havent found it yet.

For that reason my golden rule is dont buy anything from solo Chinese manufacturers, it isnt worth the risk, and invariably will end up in the bin well before its time.

There is a good reason why this stuff isnt marketed by the reputable suppliers. They know its trouble. They wont get there money back on warranty returns, they cant get it repaired, and it damages their reputation.

All I say to the O/P is it isnt worth the risk. It might be less expensive but in the vast majority of cases, for a very good reason.
 
as others have said an autopilot has very simple electronics which is something the Chinese seem to produce well. However most of the faults on autopilots are mechanical, belts, gears, leadscrews and the ingress of water often the result of hot insides being douse with water and the effect is to draw moisture into the unit though the very simple seals. The big manufactures cannot get it right and perhaps the Chinese feel they would do no better and the market is small and no spin-off the other products.
 
If you want to buy motor-gearbox units, there are plenty of factories in China making them.
There are probably lots of Chinese fishing boats with Chinese autopilots.
They don't have 'yachting' as we know it.
While the electronic hardware of an autopilot is pretty simple, the firmware can be complex and subtle, particularly for a sailing boat. I would hesitate to choose China to get that side of it developed, and that's where the development time would go. China will not have many development engineers who understand what is really wanted in a yacht system and the language/cultural divide will make it a challenge to get right.

If you're only going to sell a few tens of thousands of something like this, developing it in the UK and making a lot of the hardware like PCBs, motors etc in China, then assembling in UK and/or EU and/or other countries would be typical.
 
TernVI said:
They don't have 'yachting' as we know it.
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I nearly mentioned this earlier, and I also think it is key.

It is often pretty obvious when manufacturers dont understand their market, and usually this is because they have no realistic test bed on hand.

How can you develop a yachting product, when you dont do yachting?

Companies like Raymarine have the enormous advantage of terrific customer feedback, never mind their own test beds and their R and D people being actively involved in sailing. This will be valuable and confidential data which cant be produced on a Chinese test bench. On the whole they know what works, and, more importantly, what doesnt! This experience only comes from having lots of product in the real world, and taking note of the customer feedback, rather than telling the customer it worked when it left the factory, if it deosnt work now, put it in the bin.
 
Perrycas said:
Gee didnt think I would be kicking the hornets nest over. Yes I was asking about Chinese products
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I think the issue is that you probably meant "are there any decent and cheap..." rather than "Are there any Chinese". Unless you're fluent in the language or local I can't see much advantage in a device being specifically made in China. We often have discussions about heaters where all heaters manufactured in China are considered as one product rather than looking at brands. It's even funnier in those discussions because Eberspacher make heaters there, so the answer to the question "what's the best Chinese made diesel heater" is simply Eberspacher. Your question needlessly rules out cheap alternatives make elsewhere like Taiwan, Vietnam, or the UK, but it's quite possible there may be high quality and cheap options to be had there, would you rule something out because it wasn't made in China?
 
You see Lustyd this is the thing - my impression is you are very supportive of Chinese manufacturing - which is absolutely fine. (apologies if I am wrong). You reference to Hong Kong to counter a point made by another poster that China does not have a developed leisure sailing, which you should know is irrelevant. I have responded very specifically to why I am very wary of solo manufactured Chinese products. These are very specific points and explanations gained from hard experience. You asked earlier why China cant do this stuff. The reason is exactly because of the flow of discussion here - solo Chinese mnaufacturers are in denial. They dont understand that elsewhere these days product quality, support, spares part availability, and development are all key to product success. For whatever reason they seem incapable of making this committment and this is why their solo products are perceived so poorly. A few yachts anchored in Hong Kong that are almost certainly not owned by Chinese sailors I am afraid is not the explanation you seek.
 
ip485 said:
Laysula - unreliability is one thing, and yes there are the odd products which suffer regardless of oversight. As I said earlier, it is the combination of lack of support, spare parts availability and general willingness to accept responsibility.

Yes, I have had the odd issue with Raymarine, but the support has been good, no problems with parts even on legacy products, well written manuals and willingness to protect brand reputation. These are all characteristics sadly lacking from the vast majority of solo Chinese manufacturers - I am sure there is the odd exception, I just havent found it yet.

For that reason my golden rule is dont buy anything from solo Chinese manufacturers, it isnt worth the risk, and invariably will end up in the bin well before its time.

There is a good reason why this stuff isnt marketed by the reputable suppliers. They know its trouble. They wont get there money back on warranty returns, they cant get it repaired, and it damages their reputation.

All I say to the O/P is it isnt worth the risk. It might be less expensive but in the vast majority of cases, for a very good reason.
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Ditto that, I thought I was on a winner buying some DMX LED fixtures directly from the manufacturer saving 40% on branded units. The arrived badly packed and damaged, they denied being badly packed but sent new end caps etc to rectify, then I fired them up, the LEDs where out of alignment, a motor packed up soon after in the middle of a gig etc.....

Lesson learnt, never again will I make that mistake, I'll quite happily pay the additional 40% hoping it will be going towards quality control and customer service.

But maybe I'm being a little naive ?
 
ip485 said:
You see Lustyd this is the thing - my impression is you are very supportive of Chinese manufacturing - which is absolutely fine. (apologies if I am wrong). You reference to Hong Kong to counter a point made by another poster that China does not have a developed leisure sailing, which you should know is irrelevant. I have responded very specifically to why I am very wary of solo manufactured Chinese products. These are very specific points and explanations gained from hard experience. You asked earlier why China cant do this stuff. The reason is exactly because of the flow of discussion here - solo Chinese mnaufacturers are in denial. They dont understand that elsewhere these days product quality, support, spares part availability, and development are all key to product success. For whatever reason they seem incapable of making this committment and this is why their solo products are perceived so poorly. A few yachts anchored in Hong Kong that are almost certainly not owned by Chinese sailors I am afraid is not the explanation you seek.
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Hong Kong is part of China, but there are many, many other marinas along the Chinese coast. I have no particular affinity for Chinese manufacturing over any other, I'm just highlighting the strangeness of the various posts when you look at what people are actually saying. Yes, a lot of crap comes out of China at low cost - you get what you pay for regardless of the origin. Have you ever seen British manufactured cars? Even current Rangerovers have huge issues with both design and manufacture. China is a huge place with a massive population, so phrases like "solo Chinese mnaufacturers are in denial." is meaningless, some of them probably are, but that's not a "Chinese" issue that's a people issue present all over the world. If you want quality you have to pay for it, so if someone in China starts an enterprise with exceptional design, manufacturing and quality control it will be expensive. I was pointing out that it's unlikely that's what the OP is seeking out. Maybe I'm wrong and OP just loves Chinese goods.
 
Perrycas said:
Gee didnt think I would be kicking the hornets nest over. Yes I was asking about Chinese products, and I am aware that they already make everything pretty much. As I heard an argument once that 'the Chinese will make just what they get paid to make'. The whole gamut. Capt'n fantastics post is apposite, as based on what I had heard previously, the ONWA was good kit. Maybe not. One of the problems that seems to plague Chinese products is just that one of 'Oversight', as quality control is too often, pretty dubious. This rather why I asked if anyone knew of any 'decent autopilots'. So no one has brought up any specific Chinese brands. I guess the answer to my question is 'no'.
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My late wife's family is from Hong Kong, and I visit there fairly often. A major industry in Hong Kong is providing QA for western companies having goods manufactured in Mainland China - a lot of expatriates in Hong Kong are involved with that.
It is, perhaps noteworthy that my late wife did NOT like buying anything made in mainland China, despite being ethnic Chinese. Some of that was political - she really hated what the mainland is doing to Hong Kong - but some was that she simply didn't trust them.
Finally, it is also noteworthy that Chinese companies often ignore western intellectual property rights - the company she worked for closed its chinese operation for exactly that reason.
 
I think many in the UK (and other parts of the world) are in denial of the ability of Chinese production. They have a satellite orbiting Mars currently, I believe it will deploy a vehicle that will explore the surface. From memory they landed on the dark side of the moon. They have a navy that, in coastal waters - its not long range yet, that is believed to be able to match the Americans - and with the promise they will 'take back' Taiwan - we might see if this is correct in our lifetime.

They have the skills to make - anything - and I will guarantee that if needs be it will be totally reliable.

If you were to take the time (and there was no Covid) and visit auto-pilot manufacturers in China you would find some quality work - but the usual purchase route is to buy at a distance and pay the cheapest price possible.

I buy shackles, chain and test them - their quality is as good as an average European chain maker. Much chain, used for lifting, in Australia - come from China - you soon get to know who is good, who is bad. Where do you think a lot of European, leisure marine, anchor chain comes from? (Not quite the complexity of an auto-pilot :) ). I have trial pieces of items I develop made in China - if you develop a rapport with your chosen sub-contractors - their work is acceptable. It helps that my wife is fluent in Mandarin (and we ran a business selling into China).

They have a yachting industry, they build yachts in both Shenzhen and Qingtao (I believe the Clippers were built there). They have a racing calendar, they participate in international races.

Now that Australia no longer makes motor vehicles - we are seeing increasing numbers from China, MGs included

The writing is on the wall

Our children and grandchildren are going to live in a very different world to the one we knew.

Jonathan
 
ip485 said:
You see Lustyd this is the thing - my impression is you are very supportive of Chinese manufacturing - which is absolutely fine. (apologies if I am wrong). You reference to Hong Kong to counter a point made by another poster that China does not have a developed leisure sailing, which you should know is irrelevant. I have responded very specifically to why I am very wary of solo manufactured Chinese products. These are very specific points and explanations gained from hard experience. You asked earlier why China cant do this stuff. The reason is exactly because of the flow of discussion here - solo Chinese mnaufacturers are in denial. They dont understand that elsewhere these days product quality, support, spares part availability, and development are all key to product success. For whatever reason they seem incapable of making this committment and this is why their solo products are perceived so poorly. A few yachts anchored in Hong Kong that are almost certainly not owned by Chinese sailors I am afraid is not the explanation you seek.
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I think that statement would come as quite a surprise to many. Frank Pong and his crew were cold moulding the first “Jelik” on the roof of a tower block and lowering the finished (and very competitive) hull down the face of the building in the early 1980s, just a few years after he first took the helm of an Enterprise. There isn’t much that he hasn’t won in the last four decades. The first titanium shackles and carbon sails that I ever saw were on his boats.
 
Lustyd - more than fair enough. I have no doubt Chinese manufacturers, if they made the committment, could produce quality products, however my direct experience, and that of many many others, is that at this point in time they cant - and it isnt going to change quickly, because, as you rightly say, it takes time. Their model is to do this stuff under the control of others, and there is nothing wrong in that. I am guessing I am many years away from wanting to buy any products produced by solo Chinese manufacturers - this is just the way it is, and was why I gave the direct answer to the O/P I did.

Neeves - indeed, quite right, I dont deny the Chinese are capable, they just dont do it. Two very different things.

Kukri - indeed, also correct, and I think the Chinese are very good at what I would refer to as purely mechanical parts. After all with a shackle, what you see is what you get (assuming the material is up to spec.). We are discussing more technology based products. I have no doubt I have bought many shackles from China.

As to their yachting background of course they have some stars. However, and with respect, I dont think this is relevant. What is relevant is an industry that embodies the thousands of sailors you see in the Solent every week of the year (well in the Summer anyway) using this stuff day in day out. They are the ones that know what work, and arent especially intereted when the screen leaks, there is no one in the UK who supports the product, or if there is, they cant get the spare parts, and are very reluctant to address any warranty issues, or you are left at the mercy of trying to speak to someone in China who barely speaks English.

Theory is great, as we all know, reality is often very different!

Those that wish to buy this stuff from unknown Chinese manufacturers, absolutely fair enough, I am simply saying I wouldnt but also explaining why. I am not willing to waste any more money because it always ends up costing far more in the long run.
 
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harvey38 said:
Ditto that, I thought I was on a winner buying some DMX LED fixtures directly from the manufacturer saving 40% on branded units. The arrived badly packed and damaged, they denied being badly packed but sent new end caps etc to rectify, then I fired them up, the LEDs where out of alignment, a motor packed up soon after in the middle of a gig etc.....

Lesson learnt, never again will I make that mistake, I'll quite happily pay the additional 40% hoping it will be going towards quality control and customer service.

But maybe I'm being a little naive ?
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dmx lighting units were exactly the market I commented on earlier, and being based on motors supplying very specific and repeatable travel controlled by a digital data protocol, tiller pilots and dance floor lighting have a lot in common.
big brands from uk distributors can help with support and spares no matter where they are made, unknown brands on amazon are deemed unrepairable in the AV industry.
 
Ip485 I think you're still focussing too much on the cheap tat on Ebay, AliExpress and the like. If you look in a marketplace where anyone can sell anything, and you're looking at a price point that's unreasonably low, you'll get lower quality and support. Sure, many quality Chinese companies choose not to market to the West, and many others simply lack distribution partners. That's a world away from a lack of capability though. As Neeves said, they have a vehicle on Mars right now!
 
There are a lot of misconceptions about China and particularly about marine related activities. The Hong Kong examples are not representative of mainland China. Yachting in the way we know it has been big in HK since the 1950s when it expanded after WW2, but mainly driven by expatriates. For a while boat building was also a major industry - think Cheoy Lee and Grand Banks, but mainly for the export market in the US and Europe, taking advantage of cheap local skills. However from the 70s this activity moved to Taiwan - and now full circle back to mainland China, always following economic advantage. Boats built are (and always have been) up market custom and semi custom where there is a large labour component. Almost without exception boats are commissioned and designed by western companies, mostly US and Australian. There i no mass leisure market in China, nor an industry to supply it. Despite the long coastline, water related leisure activities are not part of Chinese life and the few marinas they have are mostly filled with large MOBOs - one of the trophy items of the newly super rich.

There is however a huge marine industry, but orientated towards river and coastal craft for fishing and transport. The autopilots from ONWA reflect that. Powered hydraulic steering is common on small craft, with joy stick control rather than wheel, and that is what those pilots are for. They do not have an application on leisure yachts, and therefore not suitable for our market. So, highly unlikely there will be a standalone Chinese brand autopilot - there is no domestic market and the export market is dominated by 3 or 4 major manufacturers who have the infrastructure to support this rather specialised market. It is of course possible that one of those manufacturers or even a new one (remember Garmin is a recent entrant) will sub contract manufacturing to China, but like the boat builders will keep control of the intellectual property and distribution network associated with their brand.
 
Lustyd - it is wrong to assume. My experience is of buying very high end communication equipment, as just one example. It is not the stuff you would ever see on eBay. The company here has now moved their entire supply chain away from China. At one time the people they worked with stayed for many years. At least there was some consistency. No longer, every year they tried to put forward someone new. Quality has slipped, the price has gone up. Unfortunately it is a story I could repeat many times. Again, I relate to actual real world experience, and again, doubtless there will be other stories to the contrary, but for me I have experience of one to many, and this is all I can base my judgement on.
 
lustyd said:
Ip485 I think you're still focussing too much on the cheap tat on Ebay, AliExpress and the like. If you look in a marketplace where anyone can sell anything, and you're looking at a price point that's unreasonably low, you'll get lower quality and support. Sure, many quality Chinese companies choose not to market to the West, and many others simply lack distribution partners. That's a world away from a lack of capability though. As Neeves said, they have a vehicle on Mars right now!
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are there many UK or EU chandlers, either physical or online, selling Chinese brand Nav gear? Is our only exposure to the available range through Ali express or Amazon?
I would have thought that someone would be selling good stuff, with good support and healthy margins if it was available.
 
Dellquay13 - yep, exactly. The well know retailers in this market, and we all know them, are always on the look out for good products, but they have also had their fingers burnt so many times. They arent interested in stuff that isnt properly supported, for which there is no adequate spare parts chain, no technical support and dreadful warranty. Any of these issues and any margin is gone, never mind the constant hassle and damage to their reputation. As is you say, is it any wonder they dont sell this stuff. As I said earlier, it doesnt mean the Chinese manufacturers couldnt step up to the plate if they made the effort, but they havent, and it isnt going to happen any time soon.

One of my clients is in exactly this market and they committ significant resource to bring new products onto the market - they really do. All of these issues will be carefully examined as part of the process again because they have direct experience of being told, oh dont worry about that, defective units you send back, we give you full refund, we are setting up a consignement of parts right here in the UK, hundreds of thousands of pounds worth, and technical support, we do that, direct line to our offices in China - except none of it i true.
 
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