Cheeki Rafiki deaths: Yacht firm boss guilty

petehb said:
Run off down wind would be my option.
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Depends very much on the boat. Many light weight boats don't respond well to running off.

Mine is superb when running off! Tracks dead straight and gives a ride like a magic carpet. Even in big seas - providing I don't try to make it plane!
 
westernman said:
Depends very much on the boat. Many light weight boats don't respond well to running off.

Mine is superb when running off! Tracks dead straight and gives a ride like a magic carpet. Even in big seas - providing I don't try to make it plane!
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Something like a 40.7 is going to surf down the waves in a mid-ocean F7 when broad reaching, even if you reduce sail, which is not exactly going to reduce the loads on the keel.
 
lw395 said:
Indeed.
Lifting the floorboards and table could be a total red herring.
The liner might be intact and the water coming in around the leeward side of the liner, which is probably under the saloon berths, and probably has a water tank on top of it.

I have met a lot of Yotmasters who don't really understand a great deal of the stuff on their boats and how it works. Let alone how the boat is built and how it might fail.
The required knowledge of yacht engineering to get YM Ocean is pretty close to zero.
In practice most people in the trade have learned a lot on the job of course.
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Andy bridge, this yachtmaster, had taken keels on and off boats with me. And repaired boats with grounding damage with me.
He put masts on boats with me.
He also fixed hydraulic stabilisers with me, at sea in a blow.
He serviced engines at sea with me - in a mobo when we were up to hours and days from land.
This yachtmaster knew not only how to sail boats, but he knew how they worked.
 
Elessar said:
Andy bridge, this yachtmaster, had taken keels on and off boats with me. And repaired boats with grounding damage with me.
He put masts on boats with me.
He also fixed hydraulic stabilisers with me, at sea in a blow.
He serviced engines at sea with me - in a mobo when we were up to hours and days from land.
This yachtmaster knew not only how to sail boats, but he knew how they worked.
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Well said!!
I do get somewhat exasperated with people sometimes, who comment without knowledge of the people involved or what could have happened in that terrible event. It's good to read comments like yours.
 
Agree.
I had a beneteau 27.7 with a lining. For several weeks I could hear lots of water sloshing around between lining and hull - really annoying but couldn't find the source. Eventually it was tracked to a leaking pipe for the engine water cooling.
 
robertj said:
Well said!!
I do get somewhat exasperated with people sometimes, who comment without knowledge of the people involved or what could have happened in that terrible event. It's good to read comments like yours.
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Do you not think that discussing what could have happened is useful in establishing lessons? I think it is. The discussions that have speculated and considered what may have happened in general have been proper without disparaging those directly affected. The facts are so scarce and the incident so tragic that it demands we discuss and try and learn.
 
robertj said:
Well said!!
I do get somewhat exasperated with people sometimes, who comment without knowledge of the people involved or what could have happened in that terrible event. It's good to read comments like yours.
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Thank you. LW395 in particular has been repeatedly having a dig at Andy. He was young but he was extraordinary talented in all the things you need to be a good sailor. Including jury rigs, inventiveness etc. It was just in his DNA. If it weren't for this catastrophic event my guess he would have been a household name for doing something special in sailing at sometime in his life. I dispair of the forum contributors who feel bound to comment on things they just don't know about.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
Do you not think that discussing what could have happened is useful in establishing lessons? I think it is. The discussions that have speculated and considered what may have happened in general have been proper without disparaging those directly affected. The facts are so scarce and the incident so tragic that it demands we discuss and try and learn.
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You are right. But some people have been overtly or implicitly criticising people who can't answer back. That crosses a line. Especially when they are wrong.
 
Elessar said:
Thank you. LW395 in particular has been repeatedly having a dig at Andy. He was young but he was extraordinary talented in all the things you need to be a good sailor. Including jury rigs, inventiveness etc. It was just in his DNA. If it weren't for this catastrophic event my guess he would have been a household name for doing something special in sailing at sometime in his life. I dispair of the forum contributors who feel bound to comment on things they just don't know about.
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I have not been having a dig at Andy.
I have said that, had he survived and the others not, he would probably have been in the dock alongside Mr Innes.
I have said that as skipper he held a high level of responsibility and accountability for his vessel and his crew.
I have made some general comments about YMs (and other tradesmen) in the industry. Which might or might have applied to a greater or lesser degree to your late friend.
I believe all of these things to be true.
I think that all commercial YMs need to take their responsibilities very seriously, particularly perhaps when they are part and parcel of an organisation which cuts corners. There have been various levels of rumblings about cutting corners in the industry for quite a few years now, and the cat 2 boats returning issue has been aired in various places before this tragedy. In my own modest dealings with this industry I have seen corners cut. Not related to any business or person discussed here!
Where I am coming from is that, had the dice rolled differently, I, or quite a few people I know, or people on here, could have been in your friend's position.
And in the current climate I would not have any faith in the English legal system acquitting the skipper following any fatality where proper procedure had not been followed to the tenth decimal place.
 
lw395 said:
I have not been having a dig at Andy.
I have said that, had he survived and the others not, he would probably have been in the dock alongside Mr Innes.
I have said that as skipper he held a high level of responsibility and accountability for his vessel and his crew.
I have made some general comments about YMs (and other tradesmen) in the industry. Which might or might have applied to a greater or lesser degree to your late friend.
I believe all of these things to be true.
I think that all commercial YMs need to take their responsibilities very seriously, particularly perhaps when they are part and parcel of an organisation which cuts corners. There have been various levels of rumblings about cutting corners in the industry for quite a few years now, and the cat 2 boats returning issue has been aired in various places before this tragedy. In my own modest dealings with this industry I have seen corners cut. Not related to any business or person discussed here!
Where I am coming from is that, had the dice rolled differently, I, or quite a few people I know, or people on here, could have been in your friend's position.
And in the current climate I would not have any faith in the English legal system acquitting the skipper following any fatality where proper procedure had not been followed to the tenth decimal place.
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So just what criminal act do you presume Andy could have been alleged to commit so that he would be in the dock?

Why do you think he didn't take his reponsibilities seriously?

Why do you think it's ok to make references to unskilled "yacht masters you have known" in a thread like this which are poorly constructed implicit criticisms?

I don't know you or what you've done in boats. I don't like your forum persona. I doubt you are half the sailor Andy was, but I accept I might be wrong.
 
I can see no plausible or logical reason that the skipper would face any kind of prosecution, he demonstrated his duty of care as far as can possibly be ascertained he had no part in the decision to sail other than to take on a normal to him delivery. It would be pure conjecture to surmise that he had any part in previous events or knowledge that the boat was out of classification. He was an innocent unknowing party as were the crew.
 
Elessar said:
So just what criminal act do you presume Andy could have been alleged to commit so that he would be in the dock?

Why do you think he didn't take his reponsibilities seriously?

Why do you think it's ok to make references to unskilled "yacht masters you have known" in a thread like this which are poorly constructed implicit criticisms?

I don't know you or what you've done in boats. I don't like your forum persona. I doubt you are half the sailor Andy was, but I accept I might be wrong.
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OK Devil's Advocate Mode:
He was skipper, the brutal fact is that he was the professional in charge and people died on his watch.
He was part and parcel of the StormForce organisation, complicit in their operating methods and their representative on the ground.
He knowingly undertook the voyage in full knowledge that the boat was not coded for it.
He knew as much as Mr Innes about the history of the boat and its coding status.
He took the Northern route which other skippers at the time decided was imprudent in the light of the weather forecast.
He set off without a chart for a significant port of refuge.
He did not appear to highlight the leak issue immediately, which deprived Mr Innes of some time in which he might have been able to perhaps get some advice?

I don't know if you've ever done jury service but frankly I would not be confident in the dock.

My abilities as a sailor are what they are. Maybe I'm not half the sailor lots of people are, but I'm comfortable in having walked away from the whole commercial YM thing, it's an industry with more than its fair share of charlatans, chancers and character defects.
 
lw395 said:
OK Devil's Advocate Mode:
He was skipper, the brutal fact is that he was the professional in charge and people died on his watch.
He was part and parcel of the StormForce organisation, complicit in their operating methods and their representative on the ground.
He knowingly undertook the voyage in full knowledge that the boat was not coded for it.
He knew as much as Mr Innes about the history of the boat and its coding status.
He took the Northern route which other skippers at the time decided was imprudent in the light of the weather forecast.
He set off without a chart for a significant port of refuge.
He did not appear to highlight the leak issue immediately, which deprived Mr Innes of some time in which he might have been able to perhaps get some advice?

I don't know if you've ever done jury service but frankly I would not be confident in the dock.

My abilities as a sailor are what they are. Maybe I'm not half the sailor lots of people are, but I'm comfortable in having walked away from the whole commercial YM thing, it's an industry with more than its fair share of charlatans, chancers and character defects.
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Well clearly you'd be good at something. I suggest you apply for a place on Come Dine With me. They always have an opinionated know nothing to liven up the debate and to allow the audience to shout at their telly. I guess you make the forum what it is too. Good day to you.
 
petehb said:
I can see no plausible or logical reason that the skipper would face any kind of prosecution, he demonstrated his duty of care as far as can possibly be ascertained he had no part in the decision to sail other than to take on a normal to him delivery. It would be pure conjecture to surmise that he had any part in previous events or knowledge that the boat was out of classification. He was an innocent unknowing party as were the crew.
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The master of a vessel is legally responsible for certain things. Just because our boats are small and plastic, that does not change.
He was familiar with the trade, he'd have found it hard to avoid knowing that his boat was cat 2 and the voyage cat zero?
 
lw395 said:
The master of a vessel is legally responsible for certain things. Just because our boats are small and plastic, that does not change.
He was familiar with the trade, he'd have found it hard to avoid knowing that his boat was cat 2 and the voyage cat zero?
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Without him admitting to the things you say in post #516 or Innes implicating him it is conjecture and probably not even admissible.
 
As soon as you put that skippers hat on, you take everything that goes with it. Doesn't matter if you are an Intergalactic Starship Commander or whatever. That must be faced.

From day one of 25 years of commercial sailing, I understood the rules. I expect that everyone else does too. No matter how upset one can get about an incident that can take control away, the Captain is The Man.
 
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