Cheeki Rafiki deaths: Yacht firm boss guilty

[westernman]

I don't think the comms with shore rate as 'plenty'.

In my work, if somebody has a problem with a big bit of capital equipment, and I'm a long way away, I'd want to know a lot more about the detail, and I'd want to know ASAP.
Because I might be on the phone to the manufacturers or other people in the trade for any tips about what the problem is.

It seems to me that time was wasted when it would have been possible to get advice from people who know the structure of these boats.

The scale of the leak problem was never quantified.

It's a cultural thing that you are on your own and satphone minutes are expensive. Minimalist communication that harks back to wireless telegraph.
I want more information when somebody is looking at a problem with my car, which might possibly cost me a grand or two to fix, why do we accept this level of comms when so much more is at stake?

Please remember we are talking about a leak which was well under control, although the source of the leak was not known. As far as the crew was concerned, it was annoying, they had to keep pumps running, but was not alarming. For them, since the leak had been brought under control, there was no reason to consider an immediate abandoning of the boat for a dangerous, wet, cold uncomfortable life raft. After all, everybody probably has in mind the book "Left for Dead" and that catastrophic Fastnet race.

They were not expecting the keel to fall off.

Nobody had made the connection between the leak and the fact that it could be a presage to the keel falling off.

Hindsight tells us, that if we have a leak in a charter boat and we do not know where it is coming from, then we should be very seriously worried and should immediately abandon ship whatever the weather conditions.

 

[dom]

Please remember we are talking about a leak which was well under control, although the source of the leak was not known. As far as the crew was concerned, it was annoying, they had to keep pumps running, but was not alarming.


...Hindsight tells us, that if we have a leak in a charter boat and we do not know where it is coming from, then we should be very seriously worried and should immediately abandon ship whatever the weather conditions.

I would personally say that a major unattributable leak in the middle of an ocean is most certainly alarming!

Moreover, and no offence intended, I think your conclusion is for many reasons totally wrong.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

They also said the leak and ingress had got worse, there is only one way for it to go from there.

 

[lw395]

Please remember we are talking about a leak which was well under control, although the source of the leak was not known. As far as the crew was concerned, it was annoying, they had to keep pumps running, but was not alarming. For them, since the leak had been brought under control, there was no reason to consider an immediate abandoning of the boat for a dangerous, wet, cold uncomfortable life raft. After all, everybody probably has in mind the book "Left for Dead" and that catastrophic Fastnet race.

They were not expecting the keel to fall off.

Nobody had made the connection between the leak and the fact that it could be a presage to the keel falling off.

Hindsight tells us, that if we have a leak in a charter boat and we do not know where it is coming from, then we should be very seriously worried and should immediately abandon ship whatever the weather conditions.

The point I was making is that the messages between CR and DI did not tell us much about the scale of the leak, or what'd they'd managed to rule out.
Was is a bucket every hour or many times that?
We get annoyed by very small leaks on or plastic boats. A few gallons from a leaky stanchion or two is notable.
Something that seems like a failed water tank is possibly a serious leak, possibly not.
I work with people a long way away, and when we have problems we discuss in detail symptoms and what we've tried.
We also sometimes look for outside advice if we are not sure or if we think that will get the job done sooner.
Somebody very familiar with these boats might have put 2 and 2 together and related unexplained water around the water tank under the settee with that being the edge of the matrix.

AIUI, more than one yacht has been abandoned with a lot less wrong with it. Usually for the hospitality of a merchant vessel.

It does not seem right to pile all the blame on someone who does not have all the information, OTOH, who takes responsibility for the standing instructions about comms and all that?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I think you get a sense of the seriousness from Innes comments particularly "don't be shy about ripping up the interior"

 

[lw395]

I think you get a sense of the seriousness from Innes comments particularly "don't be shy about ripping up the interior"

Indeed.
Does the report cover all the exchanges fully?
If so, much time and opportunity was wasted.
By the time that remark was made, they'd been looking for the leak for over a day.

My first ocean trip, we were out of touch for 10 days. Now Iridium is a couple of quid a minute?
But culturally we treat it like transatlantic telegraph a century ago.

 

[westernman]

They also said the leak and ingress had got worse, there is only one way for it to go from there.

That could easily be a sea cock or a split hose from a sea cock. A problem which can be very easily fixed - once you have found the culprit - and absolutely no reason to risk your life in a life raft.

And presumably, "don't be shy about ripping up the interior" is also consistent with this. They can't find the damm thing which is leaking. And in most production boats there are a significant number of through hulls. May be not all of them documented in the hand book?

 

[lw395]

That could easily be a sea cock or a split hose from a sea cock. A problem which can be very easily fixed - once you have found the culprit - and absolutely no reason to risk your life in a life raft.

And presumably, "don't be shy about ripping up the interior" is also consistent with this. They can't find the damm thing which is leaking. And in most production boats there are a significant number of through hulls. May be not all of them documented in the hand book?

Exactly so.
Good reason to talk over exactly what you've checked.

 

[Mark-1]

I think you get a sense of the seriousness from Innes comments particularly "don't be shy about ripping up the interior"

There's no standard unit of seriousness but we know the level of seriousness was "Must find the leak fast, but can't justify diverting a ship." I'm not sure how we convert that into litres per hour.

I'm guessing it can't ever have been more than the pump could handle - the point where you realize you have to manually bale water out for 600 miles is certainly the point where you give up and ask for a ship to divert.

 

[westernman]

There's no standard unit of seriousness but we know the level of seriousness was "Must find the leak fast, but can't justify diverting a ship." I'm not sure how we convert that into litres per hour.

I'm guessing it can't ever have been more than the pump could handle - the point where you realize you have to manually bale water out for 600 miles is certainly the point where you give up and ask for a ship to divert.

If you can't find a leaking sea cock and a bung to ram into it.

But presumably you spend a bit of time looking first. And I understand that this is what they were doing, when suddenly all hell broke loose and the boat inverted.

 

[Mark-1]

If you can't find a leaking sea cock and a bung to ram into it.
But presumably you spend a bit of time looking first. And I understand that this is what they were doing, when suddenly all hell broke loose and the boat inverted.

Agree. Probably should have left that flippant comment out, but there's probably some truth in it.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

We went through this a while back and the most likely suggestion was that they couldn't find the leak because it was under the matrix floor and coming in at the sides. I would be astonished if in the 20 Hrs or so they had not identified all seacocks and hoses. The leak had to have been both hidden and inaccessible.