checking the work completed by yards....

[SteveHoskins]

Sadly, I agree with most of these posts - in my experience, you just need to do a little research, and you know more than most professionals seem to about what needs to be done. Same applies for cars, building, plumbing, etc. you might not be so proficient at actually DOING the work needed, but that's a different discussion.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Priceless....do you know if he come to that sweeping generalised conclusion because of his own performance and attitude in his chosen career, or like most people who come up with that kind of thing was the exception to his own rule. To find a good marine professional is not just about training,qualifications and experience though they play a major part but about attitude, actually enjoying the job and taking a pride in even the areas nobody will ever see.

I think that's about competence, not professionalism, and that is shown by your use of "good professional". In general I get fairly cynical when people say that something or someone is "professional" or "not professional" unless they are referring to whether or not payment is made. It doesn't say anything about the quality of work done. That's not a criticism, and in fact a professional who worked to the degree of perfectionism you find in many amateurs would find it hard to get customers.

Quote a price the customer is prepared to pay for a result the customer wants and produce that result for that price. That's professionalism. Doing less or more than you are paid for isn't.

 

[JumbleDuck]

This is an important distinction as when I or any of my colleagues work on a boat they finish it to their own standards and not the customers as we are in no position to know what he/she considers as finished.
We hope that obviously our standards match or exceed the customers expectations.

Everything you write sounds great ... but when it comes to the finish, wouldn't it be worth asking the customer how perfect s/he wants it, rather than guessing?

That's not being contentious ... I am just wondering if you can negotiate this aspect of jobs?

 

[Lakesailor]

I don't like using other people to do work.
Whenever I have done I tell them I am very fussy and pernickety and like to check up on the work.
If they are unhappy with that they can withdraw gracefully.

I did have someone tell me "You weren't kidding, were you?"

I do know a motor engineer and machinist who makes me look slapdash

 

[Javelin]

I guess to some extent I / we do adjust our finish standards based on our perception of the customer.
For example a customer with an immaculate Andre Hoek 52 has topsides finished with 2000 grit compared to a 70's westerly Conway who is more than happy with 1000 grit.

Also the boss also takes on the responsibility of deciding who does what project and when.
His nightmare is finding the work and then scheduling.
The former for us has not been an issue for the last 3 years.
The latter has and is a daily issue keeping all the plates spinning.
I'm glad I don't have to do it.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I don't like using other people to do work.
Whenever I have done I tell them I am very fussy and pernickety and like to check up on the work.
If they are unhappy with that they can withdraw gracefully.

When I find someone who I feel I can trust to work to the standards I want - in other words, someone who can guess what I think will matter and what I think won't - I stick to them. In twenty five years I have only used two guys for classic car bodywork, and I only left the first one because he died (Kenny Gamble, RIP).

 

[RogerMayne]

I guess to some extent I / we do adjust our finish standards based on our perception of the customer.
For example a customer with an immaculate Andre Hoek 52 has topsides finished with 2000 grit compared to a 70's westerly Conway who is more than happy with 1000 grit.

Also the boss also takes on the responsibility of deciding who does what project and when.
His nightmare is finding the work and then scheduling.
The former for us has not been an issue for the last 3 years.
The latter has and is a daily issue keeping all the plates spinning.
I'm glad I don't have to do it.

The work at your yard seems to be done to a high standard (from what I can see on your website) Southwold is a beautiful place, I am looking forward to a trip there next year.

 

[ghostlymoron]

It's all about trust - and that is something that builds up gradually. Most people don't have the skills or time to do all the maintenance on their boats and so have to pay someone else to do it. Rather like servicing your car - its cheaper to pay some one to do what they are good at and spend your time doing what you are good at. Best way to find a good marine engineer/boatbuilder is to ask local boatowners who they use and go to them.
It's often good to do things yourself because then you learn about your boat and can fix it if something goes wrong at sea but not everyone has the time (or inclination) to tackle (often simple) repairs that are made difficult by lack of access.
The original question (if I remember rightly) was about how you tell if it's been done correctly. The answer for most of us is to phone a friend if we don't have the necessary expertise. If you haven't got any friends, you could employ a surveyor at extra cost.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

I do know a motor engineer and machinist who makes me look slapdash

i've got a friend like that... He built a kit car, and the finish was just exceptional .. A thing of true beauty!

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Sadly, I agree with most of these posts - in my experience, you just need to do a little research, and you know more than most professionals seem to about what needs to be done. Same applies for cars, building, plumbing, etc. you might not be so proficient at actually DOING the work needed, but that's a different discussion.

As regards the battery charger setting I think the OP is also partly at fault. She should have been given an instruction manual and on the one I fitted myself the switch settings are displayed on the front of the unit anyway. It would have taken only a few moments to familiarise herself with the kit and check it was setup correctly. I must say, however, that initially I set mine up incorrectly because I assumed a "no maintenance" battery was acid filled and it was only when I smelt the gassing that I switched it to the lower setting after checking the charging voltages with a meter

 

[Skylark]

My boat has just had its first birthday so I received a request from the French builder to complete an electronic survey about my experience of ownership.


There wasn't a rating low enough to describe After Sales Service and in the "additional comments" box I added "I object to being the Quality Inspector for your poor production processes". Needless to say, I've heard nothing in response.

 

[Bru]

As regards the battery charger setting I think the OP is also partly at fault. She should have been given an instruction manual and on the one I fitted myself the switch settings are displayed on the front of the unit anyway. It would have taken only a few moments to familiarise herself with the kit and check it was setup correctly. I must say, however, that initially I set mine up incorrectly because I assumed a "no maintenance" battery was acid filled and it was only when I smelt the gassing that I switched it to the lower setting after checking the charging voltages with a meter

Your making a fairly large assumption that every boat owner has the knowledge to

a> know without being so informed by the tradesman that there are different battery types requiring different charging profiles
b> have the technical capability to understand the usually less than crystal clear instructions
and
c> have the equipment and know how to carry out charging testing

Some, indeed perhaps many, will, others won't and why should they? Indeed, it is precisely because the OP doesn't have those skills that she engaged a highly regarded yard to install a shore power and battery charging system in the first place

Oh and a simple charging voltage test wouldn't cut the mustard in this case anyway, the slightly high charging voltage as a result of the misconfiguration almost certainly wouldn't ring alarm bells anyway even if spotted, the major problem was the excessive absorption rate (in simple terms sealed lead acid batteries have to be charged a good deal more slowly than flooded cell batteries)

The yard was engaged to supply and install a shore power and battery charging system. The workmanship is top quality and cannot be faulted. However, they did not configure the Sterling charging system correctly (or at all - it was on it's default factory configuration) nor did they advise the OP that it even needed configuring for different battery types (what would have happened had the OP at some point in the future replaced the batteries with, say, AGM?. At best it would have been expensive, at worst it could have been disastrous, even perhaps fatal)

I've no doubt it was a simple error, no more than a careless mistake probably as a result of the technician being called away in the middle of the job (this is far from being an unknown scenario at the yard concerned) and forgetting that he hadn't set up the Sterling. But given the most certainly costly and potentially serious consequences it's a mistake that should not have happened

 

[fireball]

Your making a fairly large assumption that every boat owner has the knowledge to .....

going away from the specifics and now looking in general ...

it does seem there are more and more people involved in sailing who just don't know ... and don't seem to want to know or have the time to know.

I'm not suggesting that every skipper should be skilled in everything on their boat - but they should at least know about them and know what they're looking at. Afterall, what are they going to do when it goes wrong?

 

[sailorman]

going away from the specifics and now looking in general ...

it does seem there are more and more people involved in sailing who just don't know ... and don't seem to want to know or have the time to know.

I'm not suggesting that every skipper should be skilled in everything on their boat - but they should at least know about them and know what they're looking at. Afterall, what are they going to do when it goes wrong?

Hole in one

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

(a) If you read the instructions it is clear there are different types.
(b) If not able to understand ask the installer, which might in this case have led to finding the "mistake", or phone Sterling
(c) Fair comment

 

[sailorman]

(a) If you read the instructions it is clear there are different types.
(b) If not able to understand ask the installer, which might in this case have led to finding the "mistake", or phone Sterling
(c) Fair comment

After the OP`s first (new ) charger going like Homers beer ( Duff) one would have thought the yard foreman would have double checked the installation & signed it off

 

[Bru]

(a) If you read the instructions it is clear there are different types.

Although that is true it doesn't leap out as being a particularly critical issue, the wording in this case rather implies that it's an optional item and in any case it's in the installation instructional, not the operating instructions and the OP paid an expert a significant sum of money to install it

((b) If not able to understand ask the installer, which might in this case have led to finding the "mistake", or phone Sterling

Before you get to that step you have to first know enough about the technology and the instalation top know that there is something you don't know

It's one of the great philosophical conundrums is that! (how can you know that you don't know?)

Also bear in mind that the owners were briefed on the use of the shore power installation and given operating instructions by the yard and at no time was the issue of battery types raised

In days of old when men were bold and women stayed in the galley (sheesh) it was feasible and possible for all men to know all things about their fine little craft

Modern engines, electrical systems, electronics etc are stretching the technical capabilities of many a professional, let alone the average sailor whose knowledge of engineering is limited to what they were taught at school

 

[CaptainBob]

90% of the work we've paid to have done over our 7 years of boat ownership has been considerably less than perfect. It thoroughly winds me up. I've ended up doing more and more myself, learned a lot along the way, mostly from these forums

The last work we paid to have done was the re installation of a refurbished injector pump. It went like this:

Timing worked out ok, pump bolted in place.

But because two bolts were a little awkward to get a spanner to, in front of me, they tightened two of the bolts by fingers and proclaimed it was done.

Engine started up, it ran rough. They decided the injectors must need servicing. All injectors removed.

Turned out they hadn't checked the idle adjust screw. Engine was trying to run at 400rpm. Of course it ran rough! I didn't know enough to realise.

Entire engine now filled with diesel over night because fuel return line had not been elevated or blocked. Overflowed into bilge too. 50 litres of diesel and 15 litres of oil wasted, and a lot hassle cleaning up the mess.

I had to leave the boat. In my absence they said they'd put oil in the now empty engine, and they then reinstalled the injectors.

I returned to the boat a few weeks later to give it a try. It wouldn't turn over. Just hissed at me and groaned.

Turned out they'd put the oil in while the injectors were out and had put about an inch of oil in each cylinder, thin installed the injectors over the top! I found this out myself, they had no suggestions.

I used a pela to remove the excess oil from all 6 cylinders after re-removing all injectors. And then put it all back together again.

Engine fired up!

But still ran rough

I then had a brainwave and realised it was the idle adjustment, increased it, engine ran perfectly.

Elated I rang the "engineer" and he said, "oh did you put more oil in, when I put some in I only chucked in a couple of litres" (why?)

Added about 12 litres of oil to bring it up to correct level, which he gave to me by way of an apology. The only one I got.

All good now and since.

But upshot was a lot of wasted time, money and effort which could have resulted in major damage to the engine... When the only job that actually needed doing was adjusting the idle setting.

Won't be using them again!

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Your making a fairly large assumption that every boat owner has the knowledge to

a> know without being so informed by the tradesman that there are different battery types requiring different charging profiles
b> have the technical capability to understand the usually less than crystal clear instructions
and
c> have the equipment and know how to carry out charging testing

I am a reasonably knowledgeable and proficient user of electronics etc. Up until about the 1990s I reckon there wasn't much in an average electrical or electronic system that I wasn't capable of understanding; things were still made of discrete components and rarely had any "intelligence" built in. I had worked with prototype electronics on the software side, so perhaps I'm a bit more knowledgeable than average - but not much, I don't think. At that time, I'd have agreed that there was no excuse for not having a fairly comprehensive knowledge of the systems on a boat, along with enough knowledge to either fix or replace things.

Since then, I think it has become pretty much impossible for an average guy like myself to have enough knowledge to do that. Even things that used to be simple - like battery chargers - have intelligence to do a better job, provided they are set up correctly. But that very intelligence - which is a good thing, as it gives better charging regimes and prolongs the life of batteries - means that it becomes a more complex job to install and trouble-shoot them. So, we need specialists who can spend the time to learn about these systems just to install them, and it is unreasonable to expect everyone to be able to spot problems that they may not even be aware are problems. I wasn't, for example, aware until I followed some threads on here that different battery types had different charging expectations. After all, they are all lead-acid batteries, and the chemistry is similar, so a naive view would be that while you might be able to optimize the charging regime, it would be unlikely that getting it wrong would make much difference. Of course, that is not so, as this thread has given examples to show!

Point is, I think that with modern technology you are unlikely to be able to predict all the possible operational modes, and without knowledge of these, we rely on specialists to know and understand the systems they are fitting.

 

[lynall]

A colleague of mine used to say "A professional is someone who knows exactly how bad a job he can get away with. An amateur is someone who does the best job he possibly can for the love of it."

As a mech I can safely you dont realise just how true that is!