[cheaper] hydraulic passerelle

[vas]

hello all,

as the rebuilt is slowly progressing and temps are too low for me to work (0 currently outside!), I'm just going through the (ok, still rather long) todo list.
One item I'd really like to get sorted is a hydraulic passerelle so that I can:
A. get rid of the v.nice indeed whithall (sp?) ss davits
B. consequently cut a small door+steps on the transom for better access (and much safer now that's on the hard!)

Cannot do B without A as there'll be forces I don't want to think and handle otherwise!

I really don't value a passerelle at 3-4K (no offence that's personal) that means that besenzoni are out of the Q and I'm after something else in the 1.8-2.0m range me thinks

Now, here's my problem as I don't seem to find either a s/h passerelle (ideally with some restoration work to carry out on it!) or anyother at a reasonable (to me that is) cost.

Any ideas?

Even toying with the idea of building one myself, but it will take a lot of time thinking/designing and I don't think I have it this year.

cheers

V.

 

[rafiki_]

Vas, did you try for Elessar's when he binned the one on his project Sealion?

 

[jfm]

There are very few avaialbe second hand

Making one is possible imho. I bought an ip67 24v electric linear actuator yesterday off ebay for £120. New, not an auction. Quality job, 3500 newtons; cheaper ones are £80. That sort of thing would do the telescoping part - you can get quite long strokes

Then you'd need to do the up-down, but maybe a manual mechanism like a 3-position deck chair, with a big gas strut, would be ok. Seriously. Alternative is to hang it on wires from radar arch, and a 24v winch

Then it just needs some 316 RHS 80 x 40 section and you're done. Could do this for <€1000

 

[wakeup]

Now we all want to know what you are going to do with that actuator on Match 2 ?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Now we all want to know what you are going to do with that actuator on Match 2 ?

Yeah +1 definitely, is it for the automatic courtesy flag selector?

Cheers
Jimmy

 

[wakeup]

Yeah +1 definitely, is it for the automatic courtesy flag selector?

Cheers
Jimmy

Or a Douane automatic fender offing device.

 

[vas]

Vas, did you try for Elessar's when he binned the one on his project Sealion?

PMed him, but I think he had someone already waiting for it...

There are very few avaialbe second hand

Making one is possible imho. I bought an ip67 24v electric linear actuator yesterday off ebay for £120. New, not an auction. Quality job, 3500 newtons; cheaper ones are £80. That sort of thing would do the telescoping part - you can get quite long strokes

Then you'd need to do the up-down, but maybe a manual mechanism like a 3-position deck chair, with a big gas strut, would be ok. Seriously. Alternative is to hang it on wires from radar arch, and a 24v winch

Then it just needs some 316 RHS 80 x 40 section and you're done. Could do this for <€1000

True, didn't actually think of the linear actuator for the telescopic bit, nice one, thanks J.

If everything fails, I'll definitely hang on wires and 24V winch the existing one, but then I wont be able to get rid of the davits...

Actually found one s/h, waiting for a reply and I'll keep on searching for now

Now we all want to know what you are going to do with that actuator on Match 2 ?

Yeah +1 definitely, is it for the automatic courtesy flag selector?

Cheers
Jimmy

dear drifters, I cannot say anything as I'm just as puzzled and anxious to learn what he's going to do with it

JTB doubt he needs 3.5KN for a bleeding flag

comeon JFM, tell us!

cheers

V.

 

[vas]

update!

seems that I've found one s/h available and at a seemingly reasonable price

Got still some questionmarks as pics sent to me by seller are too small to figure out how the bleeding thing works.

so it's an oldish besenzoni passerelle, that the second part of it folds on top of the other rather than coming out from inside the main bit. OK, awfully confusing description, apologies:
In other words it's NOT telescopic!

Q, how the heck do you hang the dingy from this thing???
I mean unless the second part comes out over the bathing platform, how the heck are you supposed to push the dingy back in the water? (collecting shouldn't be a problem, although the grp keel of the dingy will be scrapped against the platform...

Does what I say make sense or should I sketch it?

Length of each section of the passerelle is around 1.3-1.4m, so just over 2.5m unfolded. Planning to have a bathing platform of at least 1.2m maybe more, we shall see.

Other problem I have is that it's fugly when folded (as you look at the underside of the second section and although it's nicely engineered it's not a thing of beauty...)

What do you think?

cheers

V.

 

[Nick_H]

Do you mean it operates like your arm, you can lift the arm up and down, and also fold it from the elbow so your hand is either outstretched, or on top of your shoulder?

If so, then maybe the lifting strops for the tender fall either side of the passarelle as the "lower arm" lifts over the top of the upper arm (the strops to the front of the tender on one side, and to the back of the tender on the other)?

On the other hand, not all passarelles are also cranes, so maybe this one is only designed as a gangplank, not for lifting a tender?

 

[vas]

Do you mean it operates like your arm, you can lift the arm up and down, and also fold it from the elbow so your hand is either outstretched, or on top of your shoulder?

If so, then maybe the lifting strops for the tender fall either side of the passarelle as the "lower arm" lifts over the top of the upper arm (the strops to the front of the tender on one side, and to the back of the tender on the other)?

Spot on Nick.

I assume that there is a ram inside the side sections so that it actually folds by itself and you don't have to stand on the bathing platform to lift and fold it over
You mean the strops are on sliders sort of thing? Would make sense and/or could be retrofitted by me if not there

On the other hand, not all passarelles are also cranes, so maybe this one is only designed as a gangplank, not for lifting a tender?

didn't think of that tbh. It looks like a rather heavy construction, so I guess it would be able to lift a lightish 2.6-2.7m rib with a 9.9 two stroke Mariner.

Anyone knows or can point old Besenzoni catalogues? Can only find the current stuff on their pages and they are all retractable, nothing foldable there bar the manual ones

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

This folding type was pretty enough in 70s. Lots of them in antibes. They don't really work as tender lifts, alas. You cannot do any lifting that puts a load on the elbow joint becuase that hydr cylinder serves only to do the fold-in-half action and does not take any people weight on the passerelle - the weight is taken meachically by the deep design of the elbow joint

To lift your tender you have to either:

1. attach tender lift rops about halfway along the folding piece. attach them to passerelle only when the passerelle is already unfolded, ie outstretched. As you lift the dinghy using the passerelle up/down function the lift ropes will be at 45deg or so, and the dinghy will "ping" into the water when lifted. Not elegant, but doable if tender is light. To recover the dinghy you have to lift it from water then with a rope at each end pull it over the platform, then lower it. Even less elegant

2. Make a sliding thing on the underside of the extended part of the passerelle, so you can lift the dinghy then slide the point where the lift ropes attachs to the passerelle outwards. With a linear actuator if you wish!

My lin actuator is for a flatscreen TV fold out mechanism btw. Boring stuff. I haven't designed the courtesy flag yet but have been contemplating a design based on a subset of linear actuators called "tube actuators", where the motor isn't stuck out at the side. Many are too fat but there is a nice slim one by firgelli and you can have longer strokes than below

 

[Divemaster1]

Vas, not to rain on your parade, but....

You seem to wish to buy a passarerelle (for lifting a dinghy onto a swim platform) before you have designed the new swim platform and seen the effect of this underway, during manouver or at anchor.... and before you have seen the dinghy on the new platform...

Remember, stern is curved, and has inverse sheer, so you cannot get the dinghy all the way into the stern ... which may result in you having to build a deeper platform than what you expect.

A longer platform means that you probably will have to lift this higher up as the boat sits on the stern a bit when underway, and the last thing you want is the platform dragging in the water whith a dinghy on it....

Then there is the thought about the effect when fast underway and where the stern wave starts tapering in behind the boat etc.... as the stern squats and create a "wall of water" from around 1/2 up the exhaust channel..., which rises rapidly whilst curving inwards towards the centreline of the boat.... particularly after 12 knots and up to 15 ...

.... personally I would have kept the old setup until she is in the water again, lived with this for a while until I can make detailed and comprehensive measurements of how the boat behaves and her stance underway at various speeds etc., then make my platform design and lifting mechanism...

All IMHO ....

 

[vas]

thanks jfm for the ideas/pointers
Fitting a sliding thing mechanism is the type of stuff I'd really like to tinker with once all other things work in MiToS (err, 2015 or so...)

Alf, you're not raining on my parade, I hate parades anyway

you are absolutely right on all points.
However,

A. I really really want to get rid of the davits
B. I wont replace the bathing platform this year (just re weld a few of the supports so that I don't loose the tender on the way ) just measure and make sure that what i'll do next winter will be fine
C. I want to do all the reinforcing and structural work now that I'll be replacing the aft deck and removing the side lining of the whole aft area.

so, am I allowed to proceed?

V.

PS. seems that my existing passerelle is also a Besenzoni (saw an identical one new for sale for 3K USD ffs!)

 

[Divemaster1]

..........so, am I allowed to proceed?

V.

PS. seems that my existing passerelle is also a Besenzoni (saw an identical one new for sale for 3K USD ffs!)

Would you stop if I said No ???

I've got one of those as well... a right pain under manouver, so sooner or later it will be for sale unless I can find a better way of stowing it...

 

[vas]

spend the last half hour trying to figure out how the thing works out of 500X400pixel pics

Eyes hurt, but it does feature a sliding mechanism on the folding part so it looks it's just a matter of:

unfolding the passerelle
lowering over the tender
hooking it up (two eyes one on either side)
lifting to horizontal (moreorless) position
smoothly (I wonder?) slide it over
lower

probably makes sense...

ah, and a label on the side says that tender lifting capacity is 100kg, not much but should be ok for the tender!

back to work!

V.

 

[vas]

Would you stop if I said No ???

don't be silly, of course not

V.

 

[vas]

more photos came from seller, things are much clearer now.

there are two sliders under the unfolding part with teflon wheels and a 15mm dia (approx) axle.
The eyes are outside the width of the passerelle.
Length is 2.60m width around 0.45m
It is a tender lift passerelle.

Operation is by unfolding and lowering the passerelle
hooking up the tender.
Lifting just over horizontal
Folding which means that the axle on the slider smoothly comes to the joint, and once the lower arm so to speak is resting on top of the other, you can level and slide onto the platform and lower to rest.
Doesn't look too bad tbh.

I need MM or anyone speaking Italian to confirm that:

Portata Max. KG = 150

means maximum handling weight.

Seller said that the passerelle is around 150kg
Surely not!!! I'd have thought around 50-60kg, what do the experts think?

That final info is important for shipping as I've got a quote already and want to finalise my offer to the seller.

cheers

V.

 

[MapisM]

I need MM or anyone speaking Italian to confirm that:
Portata Max. KG = 150
means maximum handling weight.

Seller said that the passerelle is around 150kg
Surely not!!! I'd have thought around 50-60kg, what do the experts think?

Your wish is my command!
"Portata max" literally means max load, plain and simple.
Normally, when used for a passerelle, it means that you can lift up to a 150kg RIB, hanging from the tip of the passerelle.
Or in other words, that the passerelle will stand folks up to 150kg heavy - for anyone above that mark, a diet would be a good idea anyway...

Re. the passerelle weight, 150kg is a tad heavy for a 260x45 passerelle, but not much. if I had to guess a weight, I wouldn't have said anything below 120-130kg. I'd rather stay on the dock than walk on an hydraulic passerelle weighing 50-60kg!

As an aside, I checked my files and the oldest Besenzoni catalogue I found is 2000 vintage.
Just FYI, the foldable model wasn't there anymore, already in those days.
I might have some older paper brochures at home, and I'll be able to check by the end of next week, if you're interested.
But I don't think I've got any technical documentation anyway.

 

[vas]

Your wish is my command!
"Portata max" literally means max load, plain and simple.
Normally, when used for a passerelle, it means that you can lift up to a 150kg RIB, hanging from the tip of the passerelle.
Or in other words, that the passerelle will stand folks up to 150kg heavy - for anyone above that mark, a diet would be a good idea anyway...

Re. the passerelle weight, 150kg is a tad heavy for a 260x45 passerelle, but not much. if I had to guess a weight, I wouldn't have said anything below 120-130kg. I'd rather stay on the dock than walk on an hydraulic passerelle weighing 50-60kg!

As an aside, I checked my files and the oldest Besenzoni catalogue I found is 2000 vintage.
Just FYI, the foldable model wasn't there anymore, already in those days.
I might have some older paper brochures at home, and I'll be able to check by the end of next week, if you're interested.
But I don't think I've got any technical documentation anyway.

thank you very much MM

If you do indeed find something about 90s besenzoni passerelles, I'd love to have a look.
a simple rib at 2.7m with a two stroke 10hp tiller outboard and an external fuel tank cannot be more than 100kg surely (or am I talking blx?)

You are right re the weight of the actual passerelle. I checked current weights for telescopic passerelles from various brands and indeed a 2.5m one is around the 120-140kg mark. So I'll call the freight co and amend my data and get a new quote.

Seems that it's going to end up costing me around 900euro delivered in Greece.
You reckon this is a decent price, iow, should I go ahead or wait?

cheers

V.

 

[Divemaster1]

A 2.7M Valiant Rib (one of the lightest ones around) is about 45 Kg... add oars, lifting straps etc., and you'll get 50 Kg.

Then add 15 - 20 kg for engine and another 15+ for petrol + tank and you shold be there...at about 85 Kg.

Now if you have a double skin hull RIB, or a heavier one, then you'll easily exceed 100 Kg...

So you'll end up with about 300 Kg + behind the boat (when you count in the new swim platform and have removed the davits).