Cheap liveaboard for a solo novice/dreamer.

[CKG]

Those are bottom end estimates and assume mostly second hand items. Engine and installation (new) £7-8k as you usually find most of the ancilliaries need changing because they are knackered or incompatible. Sails new and basic £2500. Secondhand sails are relatively cheap usually because they are no good or won't fit. Rigging wire and terminals £1000+. electronics (basic) £1000 up to £8k for full set and autopilot. Rewire to good standard with decent battery banks £1000-1500 for materials. Reupholstery £2-3k professional £4-500 materials. Cooker and modern gas system £700 materials. Heating and hot water £3k materials. Electric windlass and modern anchor £1500

And so it goes on. You can see how large sums of money can disappear very quickly, but it does give you an idea of what to pay attention to when buying to minimise subsequent big expenditure. Of course some of those items are discretionary and you can save by waiting until a bargain or used bit turns up.

Fitting out a boat for living on and travelling long distances is of a different order from using a boat for weekends. You wear things out so everything needs to be as good as you can get. It is an advantage living on the boat as you can fix and change things as you go along but the danger is that it becomes fixing things most of the time and from time to time having enough working properly to move on!

Thanks for pointing all this out to me. Engine installation: With a good mechanic/friend an old diesel engine could be reconditioned and would be reliable at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Y/N?
Decent used sails that fit can be found with a bit of effort searching. Y/N?
Why would the re-wire be so extortionate? Even high quality deep cycle leisure batteries are relatively well priced these days. 12 volt wiring can be bought for £12-£20 for 100 metres even if you're not in the trade.
Re-upholstery could be done for a fraction of the cost of £2-3k regardless of whether it's on a boat or not.
Cooker: double burner £50 or less.
Heating: Diesel heater £170.
Hot water: Heated on £50 double burner or solar shower (£10).
Electric windlass: nice but not necessary.
Quality Rocna anchor: £400.
Surely, like a house, a boat will deteriorate faster if not constantly lived in/on. Maintenance is part and parcel of any dwelling.
I hope I'm not sounding dismissive as I really appreciate the time you took to inform me of all this potential expenditure.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Thanks for pointing all this out to me. Engine installation: With a good mechanic/friend an old diesel engine could be reconditioned and would be reliable at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Y/N?
Decent used sails that fit can be found with a bit of effort searching. Y/N?
Why would the re-wire be so extortionate? Even high quality deep cycle leisure batteries are relatively well priced these days. 12 volt wiring can be bought for £12-£20 for 100 metres even if you're not in the trade.
Re-upholstery could be done for a fraction of the cost of £2-3k regardless of whether it's on a boat or not.
Cooker: double burner £50 or less.
Heating: Diesel heater £170.
Hot water: Heated on £50 double burner or solar shower (£10).
Electric windlass: nice but not necessary.
Quality Rocna anchor: £400.
Surely, like a house, a boat will deteriorate faster if not constantly lived in/on. Maintenance is part and parcel of any dwelling.
I hope I'm not sounding dismissive as I really appreciate the time you took to inform me of all this potential expenditure.

Yes you can recondition marine engines look for something like a Bukh
No Idea about used sails I am afraid
If you are going to rewire then buy and use tinned wire it is not cheap
Upholstery I agree can be done much cheaper than a marine upholsterer find on inland as far from the sea as you can.
It would be worth buying a decent cooker and sorting the gas installation they vary from a couple of hundred to over a thousand.
Hot water it depends on if the boat has a calorifier or if you can fit one then the engine fittings could be 300 or so then there is the pressurised water system to go with it, the 12 volt pump and expansion chamber plus push fit fittings say £150 but you may find the boat already has those.
Heating especially in the winter for a livaboard will be critical you could easily use a couple of electric fan heaters but then you have the electricity costs and shore power to contend with. A few power points and simple distribution board will not be expensive for your sparky.
On a small boat an electric windlass will be well down your list probably below some sort of fridge an off the shelf free standing 12 volt / 240v would be my choice in a small sub 30 foot boat £250.
As Traona says the costs mount up and are largely determined by how comfortable you want to be.

 

[CKG]

Yes you can recondition marine engines look for something like a Bukh
No Idea about used sails I am afraid
If you are going to rewire then buy and use tinned wire it is not cheap
Upholstery I agree can be done much cheaper than a marine upholsterer find on inland as far from the sea as you can.
It would be worth buying a decent cooker and sorting the gas installation they vary from a couple of hundred to over a thousand.
Hot water it depends on if the boat has a calorifier or if you can fit one then the engine fittings could be 300 or so then there is the pressurised water system to go with it, the 12 volt pump and expansion chamber plus push fit fittings say £150 but you may find the boat already has those.
Heating especially in the winter for a livaboard will be critical you could easily use a couple of electric fan heaters but then you have the electricity costs and shore power to contend with. A few power points and simple distribution board will not be expensive for your sparky.
On a small boat an electric windlass will be well down your list probably below some sort of fridge an off the shelf free standing 12 volt / 240v would be my choice in a small sub 30 foot boat £250.
As Traona says the costs mount up and are largely determined by how comfortable you want to be.

I hope I didn't come across as rude or dismissive with Traona, as with everyone else I'm very happy that you can all be bothered replying but obviously I have to ask questions to see if there are cheaper or better alternatives. Like yourself he pointed out many things which are food for thought.

 

[sailaboutvic]

IF you started your posting with I want to buy a 3k boat to use for week end boat , the odd week here and there , you would had got some very different replies .
Tho your posted started you want to spend no more then £3000 on a project yacht between 24'-30' to live on and sail to the Med

It's 34c out here to day and have been for some days not a breath of air ,
We living on a 13 mts boats thats is fittered out up to the hill for full time liveaboard on days like to day is just bareable and people here are trying to sell you a 26 footer , god give me strength ,

Tranona has forgotten a few things ok a lot of things or maybe he hoped he got his message over .

As for working as you go , your not the first or the last that think he can do this and earn money to keep him going .
if you was a diesel engineer or electronic engineer there a good chance of getting work from other boat owner , there not much work for carpenter, the little wood work done on boat are mostly done by the owners and any big job like a new deck owner be looking for yard that can guarantee the work .
There plenty of bored liveaboard like me for one , that jump at the chance of sticking his head in a engine compartment , change a sea cock and at time rip out a head to help another fellow out free of charge .
So the only work your liable to get is from house owners , in foreign country ? ?
very unlikely , you may be able to pick up bar work for peanuts and working long hours for tho peanuts like many do ,

If you really want to live on a boat in the Med and earn money , get in touch with sunsail , Neilson, sailing holidays , sunny holidays . To name some ,
Now they can make your dream come true ,
But you be working seven days a week , no time for your self and earning guess what ? peanut .

 

[CKG]

IF you started your posting with I want to buy a 3k boat to use for week end boat , the odd week here and there , you would had got some very different replies .
Tho your posted started you want to spend no more then £3000 on a project yacht between 24'-30' to live on and sail to the Med

It's 34c out here to day and have been for some days not a breath of air ,
We living on a 13 mts boats thats is fittered out up to the hill for full time liveaboard on days like to day is just bareable and people here are trying to sell you a 26 footer , god give me strength ,

Tranona has forgotten a few things ok a lot of things or maybe he hoped he got his message over .

As for working as you go , your not the first or the last that think he can do this and earn money to keep him going .
if you was a diesel engineer or electronic engineer there a good chance of getting work from other boat owner , there not much work for carpenter, the little wood work done on boat are mostly done by the owners and any big job like a new deck owner be looking for yard that can guarantee the work .
There plenty of bored liveaboard like me for one , that jump at the chance of sticking his head in a engine compartment , change a sea cock and at time rip out a head to help another fellow out free of charge .
So the only work your liable to get is from house owners , in foreign country ? ?
very unlikely , you may be able to pick up bar work for peanuts and working long hours for tho peanuts like many do ,

If you really want to live on a boat in the Med and earn money , get in touch with sunsail , Neilson, sailing holidays , sunny holidays . To name some ,
Now they can make your dream come true ,
But you be working seven days a week , no time for your self and earning guess what ? peanut .

Thanks for the info. As has been pointed out a £3000 boat now seems an impossibility but if I hadn't have asked the question I would not have found out. Thanks for letting me know that the carpentry idea is a non starter as well. At least now I can look at alternatives. Bar work. No thanks. Peanuts I can handle as long as I feel the experience is good payment. I will do some research on Sunsail etc.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

This is about as good as it gets for about £5K

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Albin-Vega-3110206/Spain?refSource=browse listing#.W0UVZy17EdU

 

[CKG]

This is about as good as it gets for about £5K

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1976/Albin-Vega-3110206/Spain?refSource=browse listing#.W0UVZy17EdU

Thanks for the link. They have favourable write up as well. It looks like I'll have a bit more time to look at boats while I save up some extra pennies for something decent as long as the department of give us all yer f*^king money don't land any surprises on me. It seems quite a bit of boat for the price.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for pointing all this out to me. Engine installation: With a good mechanic/friend an old diesel engine could be reconditioned and would be reliable at a fraction of the cost of a new one. Y/N?
Decent used sails that fit can be found with a bit of effort searching. Y/N?
Why would the re-wire be so extortionate? Even high quality deep cycle leisure batteries are relatively well priced these days. 12 volt wiring can be bought for £12-£20 for 100 metres even if you're not in the trade.
Re-upholstery could be done for a fraction of the cost of £2-3k regardless of whether it's on a boat or not.
Cooker: double burner £50 or less.
Heating: Diesel heater £170.
Hot water: Heated on £50 double burner or solar shower (£10).
Electric windlass: nice but not necessary.
Quality Rocna anchor: £400.
Surely, like a house, a boat will deteriorate faster if not constantly lived in/on. Maintenance is part and parcel of any dwelling.
I hope I'm not sounding dismissive as I really appreciate the time you took to inform me of all this potential expenditure.

Here goes. Yes, you can recondition engines. However the old marine engines that will be original in the boats you are looking at are generally far too knackered, mainly as the result of being cooled by salt water and for many there are either no parts available or they are hideously expensive. Even if you do it you end up with a 30+ year old engine for which parts are not available or hideously expensive. For the size of boat you are looking at there are no automotive engines built in the last 30 years that can be marinised successfully. So your alternatives are to find a better example of the one already fitted, a more modern used engine that will require replacing most of the drive train and ancilliaries or bite the bullet and buy new. Remember you will be totally reliant on your engine in the canals and when you get to the Med expect to spend at least 50% of your time under engine. To avoid all this choose a boat with a properly installed modern engine.

Secondhand sails are a lottery. Few people get rid of sails that are any good as you will find when you look at old boats - most sails are well past it but still used because they are so costly to replace.

Rewiring costs are not extortionate - my estimates are based on actually doing it properly. You need a lot of things that you have not even thought of yet such as fused switch panels, charge splitters, bus bars, solar panels, LED lights, engine start battery, separate domestic bank, isolator switches. You will almost certainly find the electrical system a mess because the original was poor and limited and owners will have bodged over the years. Not simple to actually rip it all out and replace. It took me a week to do my 26 footer properly, although that included tricky things like replacing the nav lights and wiring.

You have obviously never reupholstered a boat with all the odd shaped cushions and using the correct foam and fire resistant fabric. Of course you can do it cheaply if you have the skills because 70-80% of the cost is labour, but you will get a shock if you have to buy new foam.

If you are thinking of buying a £50 camping cooker, forget it. Although there is no legal requirement for gas installations, common sense and self preservation suggest you do it to the recognised standard. SOCAL in Southampton will supply you with guidance on meeting the standards and once you have read that you will see my estimate is correct.

No idea what sort of heater you are imagining, but a proper blown hot air system from Webasto, Mikuni or Eberspacher is over £2k installed, although you can use cheaper systems either from trucks or one of the off brands.

Gas fired water heaters are no longer allowed on boats unless externally flued, which are expensive. If you want regular supplies of hot water the easy way is a calorifier using the engine cooling system. This is not expensive, but to make full use of it you need a pressurised domestic water system. There is no realistic alternative between a solar bag and a proper system.

Once you have arrived in the Med you will realise why an electric windlass is high on the list.

As sailaboutvic suggests there are a lot of things I have missed off for Med use such as protection from the sun (awnings and bimini) extra water capacity, fridge, cooling fans for example.

Of course how you spend your money depends on the standard you want to achieve and the level of comfort you expect and there are some who live at a level that is very basic, but there are far more who give up or never even get very far because the completely underestimate the challenges and the costs involved. The boat yards in SofF and Spain are well stocked with abandoned boats belonging to people who gave up mainly because they underestimated what was involved. You have an advantage because you seem to be on your own which allows you to make your own decisions on what is acceptable!

 

[SV Kittiwake]

Hi CKG,

Good luck with your adventure!

If I were you, I'd be looking at boats like the Albin Vega. Not sure if Denis Gorman (Jester Challenger) has already sold his, but it was a lovely little boat, that would be far more capable than the average sailor. He was living aboard his and was having a great time.

If you keep things super simple (manual water pumps, waterless loo, etc) then it need not be as expensive as most people think. We've managed to not need to spend much on maintenance, but you'll want money set aside for upgrades as you go along. What we did (mostly by accident / necessity) was outfitted the basics before we set off, then the first winter added more stuff that we found out we needed along the way, guided by the first year's experiences.

In terms of work though, you'll need to be very organised to work a trade along the way. We've met people doing it, but not many. If you're planning on sailing the Med, then don't discount the option of flying back to the UK for 4-6 months every winter to get decent work. We've met people doing that and the bonus is that when they're out cruising, they only have to think about cruising, and you're not missing out on anything with the Med winter. Working in the EU could (or could not) become more difficult with Brexit around the corner, so it's definitely a risk. Working from your laptop might be easier if you can do something online?

 

[SV Kittiwake]

Once you have arrived in the Med you will realise why an electric windlass is high on the list.

Why is that? We've got a very oversized anchor and don't have any trouble hauling it up by hand in the Med any more than in the UK.

 

[SV Kittiwake]

This book has a lot of useful info in it, some practical, some more a long the lines of being reailistic about what you need / don't need on a boat and how to keep it cheap. His is just one opinion, but it's a lot more considered and well thought out than you'll find on any internet forum. He's also out there doing it, on the cheap.

https://www.amazon.com/Get-Real-Gone-Become-Forever-ebook/dp/B012BYBDD0

 

[steve yates]

Thanks for the comments so far. Disheartening but honest. I've seen many boats for sale between £3000-£5000 and was under the impression that the reality of buying a half decent boat was not beyond my budget. Seems I was very wrong.

No your not wrong, look for older style boats, hurley/macwester/snapdragons/westerly's etc. I bought a longbow with new sails rigging and engine for under 5k.

You have the skills, and access to others. Boats are bloody cheap at the moment. The big issue is time. If you have the time to fettle things on the boat, your golden. Go for it.

You don't need liferafts/epirbs all singing all dancing electronics to go to sea, they are optional.

Look at boats in the 6-7k range and make an offer. Can't hurt, at the lower end of the market, almost everyone overestimates how much their boat is worth, and then spends more than it's alleged value in marina fees while waiting for it to sell over the years, getting greener and greener.

If you upped your budget to 6/7k, you would be laughing with a big choice of boats, but with patience, you can do it on your budget, tho prob a smallish boat.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Why is that? We've got a very oversized anchor and don't have any trouble hauling it up by hand in the Med any more than in the UK.

May I ask , what size boat do you have? How many people? And size of anchor and what type of rode chain rope or what ?

 

[SV Kittiwake]

26ft Heavenly Twins, 45lb Manson Supreme, 8mm chain. If we had a sub 30ft mono, I'd probably have something a bit lighter though and maybe 6 or 7mm chain, rather than 8mm. There's 2 of us.

The anchorages in the Med that we've travelled so far - Southern Spain, Balaerics, Sardinia, have been no deeper than the ones in the UK or the rest of the Atlantic coast, and with the lack of tide, we've picked up the anchor in 10m+ far less often.

And besides, our hero OP is a burly carpenter type, I'm sure he's much stronger than me.

 

[25931]

Hi, this is my first post. I have many questions. I will shoot a few of them at you guys in this post. Any comments will be gratefully appreciated.
Firstly, my plan is to find a yacht suitable for a solo novice but also something that will allow me to 'grow into it' rather than having to upgrade. I plan on living aboard. I'm 5'8" and used to roughing it so spacious luxury would be nothing more than a bonus. I'm hoping to spend no more than £3000 on a project yacht between 24'-30' with a sound hull and rigging that basically needs an interior re-fit (I'm a carpenter).
I want a boat that is sea worthy and isn't going to restrict me to coastal as my skill improves. Any recommendations?
My pipe dream is to cross the channel and work my way through the French waterways, therefore, avoiding the Bay of Biscay. This will allow me to enter the Balearic, Med, Aegean etc where I can get more hours under my belt and build up my competence. How many hours sailing/learning would you guys advice before taking on a passage like this? What certification is mandatory to allow me to do this? (Do I really need ICC?) What are the pitfalls? Things that may be obvious to you but not, necessarily to me.
I am toying with the idea of taking my tools with me to hopefully find work doing basic carpentry repairs/re-fits/upgrades on other boats. Is this a plausible reality? Do any of you know anyone doing anything similar?
Thanks in advance for any info.

As you will have realized by now there are a lot of Jeremiahs about. If you can find information about living aboard 40 or 50 years ago you can get some idea of what is necessary as opposed to what many today consider to be essential. In those days something like the Snapdragon which has been mentioned was considered to be quite large . There were no "electronics" and not that much in the way of electrics. As far as the boat is concerned it only depends on your requirements assuming that you will be single-handed. On the other hand some of the negatives do need to be considered especially the question of paying your way. The canals would not be easy single handed.
You have had the good sense to ask for advice, now it´s up to you to decide what is applicable to you. I wish you luck and happiness.

 

[sailaboutvic]

26ft Heavenly Twins, 45lb Manson Supreme, 8mm chain. If we had a sub 30ft mono, I'd probably have something a bit lighter though and maybe 6 or 7mm chain, rather than 8mm. There's 2 of us.

The anchorages in the Med that we've travelled so far - Southern Spain, Balaerics, Sardinia, have been no deeper than the ones in the UK or the rest of the Atlantic coast, and with the lack of tide, we've picked up the anchor in 10m+ far less often.

And besides, our hero OP is a burly carpenter type, I'm sure he's much stronger than me.

I have to say you do very well hauling up an 20kg and 8 mm chain day I. And day out , I wouldn't want to do it , the few times we had a anchor windlass problem with our other boat , 20kg and 10mm chain I got it up but It wasn't easy and they where In light winds in a blow , no thanks you .
But going back to the OP I know many carpenter and non are as you say Burly , putting that to one side , read the opening posting when someone talking about buying a boat to live on and cruise with a budget of 3k to buy e boat that on its only rings bells .
Anyone who spend any time living full time as the op says he like to do wouldn't even thing about any of the boat suggested and if they did if wouldn't be long before the boat would end up with the other hundred of boat that litter the MED , where other throught they could do just that .
Once again putting that all to one side , the OP don't even need to spend 3k or motor it all the way to the Med , a cheap flights to say Greece and I if he ask around the boat yards he sure to find a owner who be willing to give his boat away for the outstanding yard fees . It will still cost him an arm and a both leg to get them in any fit state to make them Sea worthily, or he do as many have done , find an old fisherman harbour and park it there until it sunk of he abandon it .
Nearly everyone who on a small boat are out for a few months if that before they escape back for some months , I know not one person who lives full time on his boat under 35 foot and even them are going back in the winter months as it's not comfortable .
I would ask the question , would you live full time in a very hot country in the summer and a wet and cold one in the winter and work at the same time . But not sure I would get a honest answer .
Any way the windless is the less of his problems .

 

[sailaboutvic]

As you will have realized by now there are a lot of Jeremiahs about. If you can find information about living aboard 40 or 50 years ago you can get some idea of what is necessary as opposed to what many today consider to be essential. In those days something like the Snapdragon which has been mentioned was considered to be quite large . There were no "electronics" and not that much in the way of electrics. As far as the boat is concerned it only depends on your requirements assuming that you will be single-handed. On the other hand some of the negatives do need to be considered especially the question of paying your way. The canals would not be easy single handed.
You have had the good sense to ask for advice, now it´s up to you to decide what is applicable to you. I wish you luck and happiness.

There maybe Jeremiahs around but it seems them many more dreamers , yes of cause you can live in a shell of a boat with a bucket for a loo and a camping stove , he also wouldn't need a engine , a pair of oars would do the job nicely , forget about a Bimini a nice umbrella and who needs a fridge when a pot of water will keep your milk over night . if he willing to live like that , in which case he find more comfort in a tent on a camp site and it be save a lot of his money at the same time .
But of cause who care if we encourage some guy we don't know to spend money on a pipe dream , it's not our cash .

 

[CKG]

Hi CKG,

Good luck with your adventure!

If I were you, I'd be looking at boats like the Albin Vega. Not sure if Denis Gorman (Jester Challenger) has already sold his, but it was a lovely little boat, that would be far more capable than the average sailor. He was living aboard his and was having a great time.

If you keep things super simple (manual water pumps, waterless loo, etc) then it need not be as expensive as most people think. We've managed to not need to spend much on maintenance, but you'll want money set aside for upgrades as you go along. What we did (mostly by accident / necessity) was outfitted the basics before we set off, then the first winter added more stuff that we found out we needed along the way, guided by the first year's experiences.

In terms of work though, you'll need to be very organised to work a trade along the way. We've met people doing it, but not many. If you're planning on sailing the Med, then don't discount the option of flying back to the UK for 4-6 months every winter to get decent work. We've met people doing that and the bonus is that when they're out cruising, they only have to think about cruising, and you're not missing out on anything with the Med winter. Working in the EU could (or could not) become more difficult with Brexit around the corner, so it's definitely a risk. Working from your laptop might be easier if you can do something online?

Thanks for the positive advice. I've already looked at reviews for the Vega's and they are very favourable, apart from aesthetics, some people think they look a bit ugly. I couldn't care less about looks. I think also that internal space was not as good as some comparable boats.
I want to keep it simple and use a bit of ingenuity as well and adding things on as you go along, things that experience dictates seems like sound advice.
Sadly what I'm doing now is about the extent of my computer skills (more of a hands on person) so working in that capacity is out of the question. The idea of a sailing carpenter was more of a romantic dream but I thought I would throw it out there to see if it was in any way viable. Fortunately I can pick up work very easily in the UK. I've just got back from nearly two years in Cambodia and am now overwhelmed with work so popping back to top up the 'living the dream fund' is probably the more sensible option.

 

[CKG]

This book has a lot of useful info in it, some practical, some more a long the lines of being reailistic about what you need / don't need on a boat and how to keep it cheap. His is just one opinion, but it's a lot more considered and well thought out than you'll find on any internet forum. He's also out there doing it, on the cheap.

https://www.amazon.com/Get-Real-Gone-Become-Forever-ebook/dp/B012BYBDD0

Thank you, your last few comments have really perked me up.

 

[CKG]

As you will have realized by now there are a lot of Jeremiahs about. If you can find information about living aboard 40 or 50 years ago you can get some idea of what is necessary as opposed to what many today consider to be essential. In those days something like the Snapdragon which has been mentioned was considered to be quite large . There were no "electronics" and not that much in the way of electrics. As far as the boat is concerned it only depends on your requirements assuming that you will be single-handed. On the other hand some of the negatives do need to be considered especially the question of paying your way. The canals would not be easy single handed.
You have had the good sense to ask for advice, now it´s up to you to decide what is applicable to you. I wish you luck and happiness.

Thank you so much. Although, obviously, I want honest opinions and food for thought it's nice to have a few comments from dream makers as opposed to dream killers. I mentioned Henry Wakelam earlier on. He sailed the world on a shoe string, built his own boat, was the first to use synthetic rope on boats by twining discarded whaling line etc. All he had was a VHF radio. It's because of people with his kind of attitude that we discovered other far flung places. His wife, Yannick circumnavigated the planet, single handed, on a 19' boat. Any thing is possible if you're positive.