Cheap boats in America

[macd]

Can someone fill in for me as I am a bit confused.
Nobody (as in, the tax man, or whoever) knows I own a boat. I bought it with cash and as far as I am aware it is not on any sort of register. I consider my ownership of it to be no more complex than my ownership of a lawnmower or a teaspoon.

Nobody knows where I bought the boat, so in theory it could have come from out of the country.

What is the mechanism by which VAT and RCD become an issue?

Your experience is like that of many, probaby the majority of UK boat owners. In some countries evidence of VAT status is tied up with (compulsory) registration, leaving very little wriggle-room.
If you've read the last page or so of posts, you should be aware that far and away the biggest de facto element of 'enforcement' lies with yacht owners/buyers themselves. A boat with a dodgy VAT history and/or RCD status, will be harder to sell and worth less money. Since the word "cheap" is the critical one in this thread's title, I'd have thought that went to the heart of the matter.

 

[davidej]

Our electrics are OK now and the amateur OP added stuff actually worked as he intended, It only stopped working after the professional insisted on 'fixing it' to ABYC codes.It is surely the Amps that kill rather than the volts and 110v needs double those for the same result, I even remember a Wimshurst (sp) machine at school 50 years ago doling out 50,000v plus and spark lighting a gas burner from my finger whilst holding it, a standard demonstration in the physics lab..

It is amps that kill, but (as Signor OHM pointed out centuries ago) more volts usually leads to more amps .

Static electricity - your Wimshurst machine- is different.

 

[Tranona]

Can someone fill in for me as I am a bit confused.
Nobody (as in, the tax man, or whoever) knows I own a boat. I bought it with cash and as far as I am aware it is not on any sort of register. I consider my ownership of it to be no more complex than my ownership of a lawnmower or a teaspoon.

Nobody knows where I bought the boat, so in theory it could have come from out of the country.

What is the mechanism by which VAT and RCD become an issue?

As I have said over and over again it mainly becomes an issue when you become an importer, rather than just a boat owner. You are right ordinary boat owners never get anywhere near these problems, which is why I am dismissive of those who say there is no problem because they personally have never experienced a problem. They (and you) will simply never have to prove anything about your boat other than you have clear title (and it is a British ship if you go abroad).

VAT is administered by HMRC and CE Marking (RCD compliance) by Trading Standards. You are required by law to declare any goods you are bringing in from outside the EU to determine if VAT, Import duty and CE marking apply. It is a criminal offence not to do so. The argument from some here is that enforcement is lax (not based on any factual knowledge in most cases, but on a general belief that our borders are porous), This may well be so but does not change the fact that it is an offence. For us sad people who have followed such matters over the years there is plenty of evidence that people have got into difficulties with both RCD and VAT compliance as a consequence of trying to import a boat, many who have complied as illustrated in this thread, and some who have got away with ignoring it. For example, I know personally of boats in Poole Harbour that are here illegally, mainly via the Channel Islands - difficult for obvious reasons to show evidence!

It is important to remember that it is perfectly possible to legally import boats from outside the EU, including from USA, but you have to look at each specific boat to determine what is required and then assess the practical and financial implications.

The title of this thread included the words "cheap" "old" and US in relation to the boats. This is exactly the type of boat which fail the tests of suitability. They are invariably worn out, incapable of getting here under their own steam without major refurbishment, can't comply easily with the RCD and shipping plus VAT is out of proportion to their value. Throw in falling value of the £ and you can see why nobody tries, so you don't hear of people getting into difficulties! Sort of self fulfilling prophesy and showing that once people look at it seriously they come to a sensible conclusion.

You will on the other hand find plenty of evidence (at least in the past) of successful import of small US built sportsboats such as Bayliners, repatriation of older "quality" cruising boats that were originally built in the EEA but which now have a low value stateside and up market uS built cruisers such as IP's, Hinckleys, Pacific Seacrafts and some of the US designed boats such as TCs Mason that were built in Taiwan but mainly sold in the US. These are possible because they were probably designed with the RCD in mind so complying via a post construction certificate is not difficult. Sometimes there is little financial advantage - they are bought simply because of limited availability in Europe and the buyer is prepared to jump through the hoops.

So, a very different world from that experienced by most people on this forum.

 

[Tranona]

Does the exemption from all this VAT and certification stuff still exist for liveaboards that have made their home in the boat for more than a year and claim it as their principle residence?

You are thinking or "Returning Resident Relief". Just being a liveaboard is not sufficient to qualify. It is aimed at non EU residents taking up residency in the EU or returning to the EU from having been resident elsewhere. Many liveaboards are in fact still resident in the EU so would not comply with the rules.

The boat is treated as a chattel, has to be owned for a qualifying period before application and there are limitations on selling it once it is brought in.

The rules are quite straightforward - but few people can comply as first (if you were originally EU) you have to become non resident which is nowhere as easy as it sounds - not just a question of physically living elsewhere.

 

[dom]

VAT is administered by HMRC and CE Marking (RCD compliance) by Trading Standards. You are required by law to declare any goods you are bringing in from outside the EU to determine if VAT, Import duty and CE marking apply. It is a criminal offence not to do so. The argument from some here is that enforcement is lax (not based on any factual knowledge in most cases, but on a general belief that our borders are porous), This may well be so but does not change the fact that it is an offence. For us sad people who have followed such matters over the years there is plenty of evidence that people have got into difficulties with both RCD and VAT compliance as a consequence of trying to import a boat, many who have complied as illustrated in this thread, and some who have got away with ignoring it. For example, I know personally of boats in Poole Harbour that are here illegally, mainly via the Channel Islands - difficult for obvious reasons to show evidence!

Agree with this entire post. But I'm not even sure that one is so unlikely to get caught, especially wrt larger yachts. I personally know of two oldish boats currently impounded in the Solent, where the owners didn't have the cash-flow to pay the levied taxes and sort out the mandatory list of works. Both boats have been left to rot as legal due process meanders through the courts.

It's so sad to see nice folk putting forward the "but surely" defence; it doesn't work.

 

[Robin]

It is amps that kill, but (as Signor OHM pointed out centuries ago) more volts usually leads to more amps .

Static electricity - your Wimshurst machine- is different.

Just returned from the boat and the 110V was off yet again. Dodgy connection on the dock box socket. Their connect pins are small and most of the oomph goes via a small pimple/dimple in the plug probe/tang. despite just having a battery charger running there was evidence of one of the 3 tangs getting hot suggesting poor contact. Anyhow moved our lead to the other socket of our pair and all back on again and only the air was blue not the smoke from the connectors.:disgust:

 

[TQA]

You are thinking or "Returning Resident Relief". Just being a liveaboard is not sufficient to qualify. It is aimed at non EU residents taking up residency in the EU or returning to the EU from having been resident elsewhere. Many liveaboards are in fact still resident in the EU so would not comply with the rules.

The boat is treated as a chattel, has to be owned for a qualifying period before application and there are limitations on selling it once it is brought in.

The rules are quite straightforward - but few people can comply as first (if you were originally EU) you have to become non resident which is nowhere as easy as it sounds - not just a question of physically living elsewhere.

I am pretty sure I am deemed to be non resident and I do own a US built plastic classic but it is of academic interest as I have no current plans to return to wet cold and windy Britain. However I like to know my options just in case I dig out my foulies and set the way point for Falmouth England and not Falmouth Antigua

It is good out here in the Eastern Caribbean.

 

[Tranona]

I am pretty sure I am deemed to be non resident

You can't become non resident by default. You have to go through a formal process of cutting all ties with the UK and taking up residence elsewhere before you could consider going down the "Returning Resident" route.

 

[usernamenotvalid]

ok but in plain English. Could I, as a dual passport holding UK/OZ citizen, whichever being the most beneficial. Come to Europe, buy a boat, VAT paid or not, live on it, cruise for three or four years, then sell it VAT paid or not? I would neither be importing, nor exporting, just touring Europe. With, either an Oz, or UK passport.

 

[Tranona]

ok but in plain English. Could I, as a dual passport holding UK/OZ citizen, whichever being the most beneficial. Come to Europe, buy a boat, VAT paid or not, live on it, cruise for three or four years, then sell it VAT paid or not? I would neither be importing, nor exporting, just touring Europe. With, either an Oz, or UK passport.

Your citizenship is largely irrelevant, it is residency that is the key for "Returning Resident".

However, as a non resident you could bring an non EU registered boat into the EU temporarily (normally for 18 months) without paying VAT and use it personally. However you could not sell it in the EU without importing it and going through the hoops discussed here.

On the other hand you could buy a VAT paid boat in the EU, use it without restrictions, including taking it out of the EU temporarily, and subsequently sell it in the EU without any restrictions - just like an EU resident. You cannot buy a boat in the EU without paying VAT and use it in the EU. in practice the only way you could buy one is to buy new, but you will have to eventually export it, although you could use it temporarily as a non resident. VAT is a tax on transactions and liability depends on the exact facts of the transaction and inevitably the rules are written in such a way that the opportunities for avoiding it (particularly for private individuals) are extremely limited and in reality non existent for most.

 

[Warpdrive]

Robin
Yes its the amps that kill for sure but the 'volts drive the amps' , sorry not very tech correct. But you heart can only carry so many amps before it stops. The higher voltage will allow more amps to pass thru the standard restance of your body.
Keeping it simple, If we use 500 ohms as the body resistance. ( it vary ). Using V=IR. (I is the amps)
So 110v=.22amp x 500ohm. And 220v=.44amp x 500ohm
You can see that if you get a belt from 220v you body will absorb .44 amps on 110v only .22amps.
It takes very approx .2 amps across the heart muscle to kill it. If the current does not go thru the heart you can take more amps.
So please be more careful with 220v!
Check out electric shock on Wikipedia for more.

 

[Robin]

Robin
Yes its the amps that kill for sure but the 'volts drive the amps' , sorry not very tech correct. But you heart can only carry so many amps before it stops. The higher voltage will allow more amps to pass thru the standard restance of your body.
Keeping it simple, If we use 500 ohms as the body resistance. ( it vary ). Using V=IR. (I is the amps)
So 110v=.22amp x 500ohm. And 220v=.44amp x 500ohm
You can see that if you get a belt from 220v you body will absorb .44 amps on 110v only .22amps.
It takes very approx .2 amps across the heart muscle to kill it. If the current does not go thru the heart you can take more amps.
So please be more careful with 220v!
Check out electric shock on Wikipedia for more.

OK understood. However I have never had a EU 220V connector overheat and burn when running permissible loads, yet I had two very expensive ultra heavy 30A cords do so when we lived on board full time and currently have a problem with one( just 12 months old) now despite it only carrying enough current to run our on board charger,as nothing else is left on 24/7 neither the boat breakers nor the dockside ones ever trip the 'fuse' seems to be the connectors. I am paranoid enough about AC electrics of whatever voltage to avoid contact of live stuff at all costs, so on balance and given free choice would prefer the European supply system anytime, but then that is what I was brung up on!

 

[BrianH]

Robin
Yes its the amps that kill for sure but the 'volts drive the amps' , sorry not very tech correct. But you heart can only carry so many amps before it stops. The higher voltage will allow more amps to pass thru the standard restance of your body.
Keeping it simple, If we use 500 ohms as the body resistance. ( it vary ). Using V=IR. (I is the amps)
So 110v=.22amp x 500ohm. And 220v=.44amp x 500ohm
You can see that if you get a belt from 220v you body will absorb .44 amps on 110v only .22amps.
It takes very approx .2 amps across the heart muscle to kill it. If the current does not go thru the heart you can take more amps.
So please be more careful with 220v!
Check out electric shock on Wikipedia for more.

In my life I have had numerous shocks with 220V and survived, it all depends on which part of the body the current passes. Normally it is the one hand and arm that makes the contact and doesn't route the current across the heart, which accounts for most fatalities when it is driven to fibrilate. I remember the safety lectures in my technical days and how much current is required - it is rare for 220V to supply enough but 500V is where the real danger level begins - or so I recollect being told.

In a previous life I was responsible for VHF/UHF transmitters and the high voltage equipment had interlocks on the access doors that would disable the HV but the technicians would trip them to enable them to test while the equipment was in its normal activation. There was one severe accident, it was a bad burning case but the victim survived, albeit badly scarred.

Not just medically but in general, and particularly household applications, the safety level of 220V is much higher than 110V due to the lower current involved. It's always the current that does the damage.

 

[Birdseye]

I've been looking for my next boat over the last couple of months and had just about settled for what I could afford in England and nearby. Then I made the mistake of looking at this site offering boats in America http://www.findaboat.co.uk.

Suddenly it appears I could afford something palatial. I wonder why used boats appear to be much cheaper in America. From limited experience in the Caribbean, I know that sun and warmth can degrade systems and fabric very quickly so maybe some of these boats are not the bargains they appear to be.

But why so cheap?

What sort of boat are you looking for? I am in the US at the moment and have looked at for sale boats in the marinas without seeing any obvious bargains. In fact everything in the US currently seems pricey.

 

[jav301]

Hi. Sorry, I thought this thread had drifted away. I've been looking for yachts 27 to 35 feet long here. But if you look on the weblink in this post and search for boats under £35000 You will find lots of good looking bigger boats. Some seem to be tremendous bargains, but I have been put off by the wise counsel on here. It would make for an enlightening holiday occupation taking a look at some of them though.

 

[Tranona]

It would make for an enlightening holiday occupation taking a look at some of them though.

The experience would be somewhat similar to viewing older "bargain" boats here. These boats look cheap, but are cheap for a reason. Long way to go to look at worn out boats! Not all of them of course, but a lot of frogs before you find a prince! Then add £10 k for shipping and £7k for VAT and a £35k boat there no longer looks cheap if you want it here.

 

[DoubleEnder]

I bought a boat in the USA in 2004 and imported her to the UK. The boat was shipped, by Peters & May, very efficient. The matters of VAT, import duty and RCD compliance were dealt with very thoroughly by the shippers and HMRC. I guess if you sailed back and snuck in you might get away with it but I don't think I'd fancy a cheap old boat for a transatlantic.
I bought a very specific boat. If I were looking for a more modern yacht there are more than enough bargains in UK and the rest of Europe. Unless you have a hard to find yacht in mind it makes sense to stay closer to home. Shipping transatlantic is not cheap.

 

[Robin]

One thing to remember in comparing internet advertised prices is that UK boats had 20% VAT added when newand depreciation starts from the vat included higher figure and US prices never include the sales tax, usually around 6% which has to be added even to an Ancient old banger, they collect it every time a boat Changes hands throughout it's life. It varies a bit State to State and some put a cap on the maximum, like $2000 in Virginia ( I think $18000 in Florida mind). Delaware is tax free and why many have companies registered there to own the boat. Most States allow you to leave within say 30 days tax free if you have a valid reason, like moving to another State to pay tax there. IF THEY don't get you with the sales tax they usually slap on a 'use' tax if you stop somewhere over a certain time. Otherwise if you move and the new State has a higher tax you have to pay the difference. We got hurricane tied by our first boat purchase, couldn't move it in time and chose to bite the bullet and pay Florida 6% after which we decided we might as well stay there as go somewhere else ( Virginia was the original choice) and cruise back there anyway, at least if we move anywhere else now we won't get stung with the added bit because Florida is one of the higher ones anyway. Of course a boat being exported would( should) not have this problem..NIice little earner sakes tax as it applies on all sales and some boats ( motor especially) change hands every year it seems when the ashtrays get full or the fuel tank empty.

 

[Triassic]

You will on the other hand find plenty of evidence (at least in the past) of successful....snip.....repatriation of older "quality" cruising boats that were originally built in the EEA but which now have a low value stateside .....

This is exactly what a friend of mine did recently. He found a British built boat, a Westerly I believe, for sale cheap in the US, spent some time over there fixing it up and then sailed it back to the UK. The icing on the cake was that amongst the paperwork was the original bill of sale showing VAT paid because the boat wasn't exported from new.

Would I be right in thinking that if he didn't have that piece of paperwork then it might be possible to trace the original sale of the boat from the manufacturer? In other words would the VAT man accept a record from the manufacturer that the boat was originally supplied into the European market?

 

[macd]

This is exactly what a friend of mine did recently. He found a British built boat, a Westerly I believe, for sale cheap in the US, spent some time over there fixing it up and then sailed it back to the UK. The icing on the cake was that amongst the paperwork was the original bill of sale showing VAT paid because the boat wasn't exported from new.

Would I be right in thinking that if he didn't have that piece of paperwork then it might be possible to trace the original sale of the boat from the manufacturer? In other words would the VAT man accept a record from the manufacturer that the boat was originally supplied into the European market?

You might want to advise your friend to keep very quiet about his good fortune. He may well have the original VAT receipt, and it will no doubt satisfy all but the most rigorous inspection. However, his boat is not VAT-paid. VAT became due all over again when he reimported the Westerly back to the EU. Plenty of explanation of this mechanism earlier in this thread.

In fact the whole concept of a boat being 'VAT-paid', although often convenient, is wrong. VAT is paid on VATable events, not on things. The original sale of the Westerly was one such event. Importing it back to the EU is another.

However, because of the age of the boat and its having been built in the EEA, its RCD status is fine.