Chartering - should most experienced person always be skipper?

Re: CHARTERING - who\'s skipper?

[ QUOTE ]
I would evaluate the skipper as a person as well as sailor - and if it all added up then I would get aboard as crew, confident that if I had a really brilliant idea (hah!) then it would be considered by the skipper and acted upon if it was obviously safer/better.

I would not usurp that skippers authority and i think i have been tested in this regard.

Being skipper doesn't mean you are the bestest saily person onboard. I'd still be skipper if that examiner johnmorris came on board my boat - but I would jolly well learn loads of stuff! In fact, i have nearly never had any boaty person on board and not learned some boaty stuff from them.

As crew, there are other ways in which you can remain as crew - and yet still not have to merely sit tiight and bite your lip as cockup follows awful cockup . You can, for example, offer a complete solution to a skipper, as a question. So in the past i have offered "shall we take a long line forward here so we can spring off?" and so forth or if on helm i would "shall i stay a bit further offshore with the shoals around here?" or maybe "as you come in and i am waiting to go ashore with line would it be useful if i held up a number of fingers to show how many metres off the pontoon you are?" or whatever.

So if as crew you have other ideas which the skipper has obviously not considered you can offer them and it need not usurp him. In fact, it had better not. Any half -decent crew should/would do the same.

The skipper doesn't decide everything about the boat whilst everyone else sits waiting for commands saying "well i wouldn't fipping do THAT".

The decent crew offers his ideas early and concisely : - if all he does is sit and wait for an instrcution he is not much more use than a sulky yet skillful novice.

Even with just two people on a boat there will be one skipper,and one realy quite handy person that should be totally onside with the skipper, trying to make the skipper look good, not ready to pinch his position.

But more importantly, the decent skipper asks for agreement for his chosen course of action - or alternatives.

So, before (say)a difficult berthing he gets people together and says someting like "right i think what we'll do here is..so you do this and you do that..izzat okay or does anyone have better ideas?" So that would get flaming to tellus his fab berthing idea and avoid kersmackig the boat.

Likewise, a safety briefing whould establish not what to do in every possible eventuality but at least show/tell what equipment is available and where it is. And of course, unlike the fireball model - it shows that the skipper is not going to be waiting for a managed plan and direction for same to somehow magically "emerge" - the skipper has thought about it all, and more than just a bit.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I was trying to say, but said with a lot more panache!
 
Re: CHARTERING - who\'s skipper?

[ QUOTE ]
Fireball , please just accept that at some time you MUST have a skipper in charge.

[/ QUOTE ]
We do - but it could be either of us. When in doubt, blame the spouse ! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

WRT dinghies - both Dad and I usually helm our own boats - so when it comes to racing together we both know what is going on at the back of the boat.
 
Re: Chartering - and \"Irish Parliament\"

John Morris used "Irish Parliament" as synonym for (I suppose) a disorderly assembly. I hadn't heard that one before - not entirely unfair at times but a little insensitive in these inclusive "peace process" days.

On the main thread:
my question referred to a bareboat charter, not a private boat when owner is IMHO *always* skipper.

It isn't always easy for Cap'n Bill to keep stchum when (assuming he is a lot more experienced than the skipper for the charter) there is a crisis and Bill thinks skipper is reacting too slowly, letting situation deteriorate etc.

Of course Bill should hold back as much as possible - its a matter of judgement in the end.

John
 
Thank you - someone with similar situation - although I don't have the kids - just the in-laws! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
hnm, well, probly not you then

disagree, really

It is fine to use such a figure of speech, as "irish parliament" likewise "[--word removed--] in the woodpile" and not take offence. That seems a bit over-sensitive, and it is partly those oversensitivities that seem to be a problem. We've had people on the forum before taking exception at any reference to Irish issues and it is the same as Muslims going berserk over a few harmless cartoons.

Separately ... no i don't think Bill should hold back very much - not if that means he should bite his lip for fear of upsetting super-delicate feelings of newbie skipper and let things go to utter rats before having to take over.

The proposed skipper should be pretty darn good if the alternative is Bill, imho.

For his part - Bill should have confidence that he'll be listened to, considered and so forth.

I want there to be a better reason to have a new skipper other than "buggins turn" to change skipper, i think.

Of course, one possible reason fo rthe change is that Bill might easily be an overbearing bombastic git, perfectly possible if he's Irish. Nearly as bad as being from Yorkshire like me...

edit: Ni gger obviously isn't acceptable! More non-contextually-sensitive censorship, imho.
 
[ QUOTE ]
All these snide remarks about committee meetings during a crunch time -

[/ QUOTE ]

I made that comment and I dont do snide remarks.Im sorry if it sounded like one.

When you sail with people who perhaps you dont know as well as you think sometimes the person you thought of as strong decisive experienced etc may fall apart under pressure. The quiet guy who is happy just to tag along and be the grey man on the crew may well turn out to be solid as a rock when you need him most.

Im not sure where this ramble is going but when the crew are cold wetand frightened for whatever reason they will all be looking to the Skipper for leadership .
 
No offence taken in any of this - the implication was that without a recongnised skipper time critical decisions are delayed - my experience has indicated that this is not the case for us.
 
Have thought it over - I really don\'t think I am skipper!

Been mulling it over on the walk back from work. I really don't think that on a small family boat its realistic to use "skipper" in the full, naval, do what I say or be court-martialled sort of way. Or not if you want to sail as a family again, anyway! Imagine the following scenario...

We're on the mooring in Ardfern. Its blowing a bit in the loch and I propose to sail down to Crinan for coffee. "Don't be daft", says Lisa, "it'll be horrible, bouncy and wet and the children will be sick!". So I can stick to my guns (then am I skipper?) or agree (so then is she skipper? Or am I still skipper but "managing" my crew wisely??!). OK, for the sake of argument I'll stick to my guns and maintain my position as skipper. "No, we're going, it'll be great", I say. "OK", comes the reply, "off you go, but the kids and I are driving round. See you there!". Umm. So am I skipper because I get to go sailing? And have the "crew" mutinied and at best should never be allowed to sail with me again. Or was Lisa skipper all along and has allowed her first mate to deliver the boat without her on board...

Its just silly in this setting. And artificial, and isn't how it works in practice.

Entirely happy that sometimes you need a skipper. But I don't think you always do. Perhaps particularly when you're sailing a) with close family (who inevitably develop some reasonably effective method of group decision making together in everyday life) and possibly also b) in boat which is small enough to actually only need one person to sail it anyway.

Cheers
Patrick
 
Re: Have thought it over - I really don\'t think I am skipper!

I think it comes down to who has to sleep in the shed when you disagree on where your sailing too! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: Have thought it over - I really don\'t think I am skipper!

I think there's probably quite a difference between the "shall we/shan't we" debates that all crews (and especially family crews) should have before sailing in dicey weather and the need for a nominated skipper in a rapidly developing emergency.

I don't think anyone's arguing that a family crew would sail in dicey weather simply because the skipper wants to. There is definately a difference between family crews and crews of friends.
For those advocating sailing "skipperless" then consider this. If I come sailing with you does that make me also a co-skipper, or are the two of you skippering and I'm crewing? I don't think I'd be especially happy with either, if something happens I would want to know who was going to make the decisions, or is that expected of me?
 
Re: Have thought it over - I really don\'t think I am skipper!

I agree that's an interesting test of the theory, what happens if you come too? We have sailed with friends or other family aboard, and although its been unspoken I've generally felt that they come as our guest(s), and that we both have a duty of care to them. But I've not otherwise felt that it changes the way the two of us decide what happens jointly.

But maybe I've just not had enough emergencies at sea yet to appreciate the value of a clearly nominated skipper. Or perhaps more likely, in our family, I just am the skipper by default. Or perhaps even more likely Lisa is, but she does it so well I haven't realised it ;-)

Cheers
Patrick
 
Re: NOT being Skipper

[ QUOTE ]
At least I don't need a tender to carry my ego [unquote]

Sorry chaps, bin down the pub. Glad to see we've nearly drained this one. But young Fireball, you can't get away with that! To even suggest that skippering is an ego trip is way off beam. I'll spare you the lecture, but it's bloody hard work, that I do know.

See you in Lymington on the 28th then?
 
Re: NOT being Skipper

Ah ha - you bit!
Without dropping down to a personal attack:
[ QUOTE ]
I'm ressured to find support for the traditional style of management where the main man is still referred to, and more importantly treated as, the Skipper. But I've hardly ever sailed with anyone more experienced than myself; at one time that was 45-plus weekends a year, racing and cruising with a database of 80 crew (yes, they did come back for more!). I've sailed with people better than me: better helms, sail-trimmers, foredeck gorillas or tacticians, they all made my role enjoyable - but they just couldn't match the number of miles and the weekly experiences that I had under the belt.

[/ QUOTE ]
That paragraph just smacked of: Other people may be better at sailing than me, but I'm better than everyone I sail with so I'm skipper - maybe you didn't mean it that way....

If you're finding skippering bloody hard work then I suggest you're doing it wrong - or have the wrong crew!!

You won't be seeing me in Lymington on the 28th as I have other engagements that weekend.
 
Re: NOT being Skipper

In practice I would say that the Owner is always Skipper, after all he pays the bills when something goes wrong / breaks.

On a Charter I would say that the "skipper" is whoever pays the bill and I guess is the person who signs the paperwork.

If everybody shares the cost, then I would say the Skipper is whoever everyone is happy with.

If Bill does not think that the chosen Skipper is able then he shouldn't be onboard in the first place.

It may well be that Bill sees a situation developing which he <u>beleives</u> he knows best how to handle, but their is never a guarantee that this is in fact the case - after all unless he has the power to read minds he has no way of knowing everything that the Skipper is actually intending to do and their is often / usually more than one approach to a problem and many situations are not exactly life threatening - just not quite as "right" as they could be!

If I was Bill and time allowed I would speak to the Skipper to give my opinion / advice / exchange views, but ultimately let the Skipper decide the course of action.

The exception being that if I saw that the Skipper intended to do something that was a danger to life and limb (rather than just ego) when their was a safe alternative - in these circumstances I would be very very surprised if the Skipper did not heed advice from Bill (Not as another "Skipper", but as an "Advisor" - especially if the "advice" was given very clearly / bluntly /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif).

IMO a good skipper will NOT be afraid to seek advice, it's not a sign of weakness - it's a sign of good judgement. A good "facing saving" way to go forward would be for the Skipper to suggest that Bill take the helm (or "look at" the Navigation), whichever was the problem area. (or that Bill suggest this so that the Skipper can have a rest / clear thinking time for the next step).

But if he did up ignoring good advice that would avert a life threatening situation I may react the same way as if someone was trying to kill me. i.e. badly. The question of me becoming "skipper" or not being academic. But I can never see this situation arising - as, like Bill, I wouldn't go on a boat with a skipper I did not have confidence in the first place.
 
Re: NOT being Skipper

[ QUOTE ]
In practice I would say that the Owner is always Skipper, after all he pays the bills when something goes wrong / breaks.

On a Charter I would say that the "skipper" is whoever pays the bill and I guess is the person who signs the paperwork.



[/ QUOTE ] Neither of these statements are true in many cases.

I have skippered boats where I was not the owner and didn't pay the bills. Or think of all the superyachts in the world. The skipper is definitely in charge even when the owner is on board. It takes a certain amount of diplomacy to 'tell the owner' that we can't go where he wants when he wants....

What about skippered charter work? Lots of people employ a skipper for their cruise.

The skipper is either elected or appointed, and is where the buck stops...
 
Re: NOT being Skipper

Hi all,

I have read all the aforegoing with great interest, and I have learned a thing or two in the process, but the one thing I now understand better than anything from all this is............

Why I sail single handed! (grin).

Chee-Oh! Charlie.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top