Chartering - should most experienced person always be skipper?

Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

Sailing with Dad - although he doesn't have a financial interest in the boat there is generally no disagreement - a difference of opinion ... well - he taught me so we don't have those either. I trust him completely with the boat as he would me.

Sailing with SWMBO - we do disagree on destination, quite often, probably around 50/50 resolution - I want to sail further, she wants a quieter sail (understandably as I'd sail non stop if I had the chance!), but as an example - our outbound trip in sept - she said Cowes, I said Newtown, we went to Beaulieu ... at the end of the day we both need to enjoy the sailing so we sail as we live the rest of our lives - with compromise to keep the otherone happy...


Do you really need to be dominant? I suppose quite a few are sailing with ppl noticablly less able than the "skipper" so it becomes obvious who is in charge, but if you are happy with anothers decisions do you really have to have one dominant?

If you have a couple of have learnt to sail together and have the same experience - who becomes skipper? Share the responsiblility - it is more relaxing all round
 
Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

So, what if a schitzophrenic is sailing single handed?

Does he discuss decision-making with his alterego/s?

Much easier, and in the event of cock-up soundly declaim " It wusnae me!!" " It was a big boy and he swam away!"
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Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

I understand that the really successful single-handed yotties burst into tears a lot. Perhaps it's cos their alter ego is unreasonably harsh and demanding?

A few years ago i was listening to some local radio Call the Doctor style phone-in whilst yet again stuck on the M25. One chap calld and his problems were too much for the resident doc - it was strongly recommended that he see someone as soon as possible about his schizophrenia. "I'll give you two numbers..." sed the doc. Hoho.
 
Going back to the original question- imho, boats always need a skipper, who carries legal responsibility for boat and crew. This person is also the arbiter for disputes amongst whoever is actually sailing the boat. Crew get 'skipper' experience by being watch leader, preferably by giving the skipper an uninterrupted sleep. The skipper should be up to the job, but not necessarily the most experienced/proficient sailor aboard.

I love it when as skipper all I have to do is make tea, and the YM on watch does the business.
 
Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

There is an apocryphal story of the Schitzophrenics Anonymous group who were to have their AGM in a large hotel only to find that they were double-booked.......
 
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Going back to the original question- imho, boats always need a skipper, who carries legal responsibility for boat and crew.

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IE scapegoat - when it all goes wrong blame the skipper ...
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This person is also the arbiter for disputes amongst whoever is actually sailing the boat.

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So when the crew has a barny the skipper wades in uniting the crew against the skipper.
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Crew get 'skipper' experience by being watch leader, preferably by giving the skipper an uninterrupted sleep.

[/ QUOTE ] After many hard hours of tutilidge making the skipper tea and polishing his boots

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The skipper should be up to the job, but not necessarily the most experienced/proficient sailor aboard.

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Capable of taking the blame without arguement, used to being outcast by the rest of the crew, capable of doing 12hour watches by themselves at night and makes a good brew ...
 
Fireball
I think you'll find the the courts (international or local) deal with all vessels the same i.e. all vessels must have a skipper and an owner(s). There's only one skipper but there be any number of owners. It's possible to be both an owner and the skipper.
I would presume that if the boat were being run by a committee then the courts would want to know why the owner allowed the vessel to be operated without a skipper (which I believe is in contravention of various international laws).

When I hired a flotilla boat I had to fill out various forms one of which was who was the skipper or person "in charge".

Peter.
 
On most boats I have sailed on I have been the most experienced, or most knowledgable, or whatever.. but the skipper has always been the owner, or the lead charterer, or the owners friend/representative.

Occasionally this has been me, and on my boat it's always me if I'm aboard.

With crew of similar experience, there has always been discussion and consensus where there has been the opportunity, and I cant recall any serious emergencies where there wasnt the opportunity for discussion.

So I guess my answer is no, or not necessarily.
 
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On most boats I have sailed on I have been the most experienced, or most knowledgable, or whatever.. but the skipper has always been the owner, or the lead charterer, or the owners friend/representative.

Occasionally this has been me, and on my boat it's always me if I'm aboard.

With crew of similar experience, there has always been discussion and consensus where there has been the opportunity, and I cant recall any serious emergencies where there wasnt the opportunity for discussion.

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Agreed but for one experience. I was a mere son-in-law but the squall hit and I ended up calling the tune. I felt like s**t for doing so but (yes I say it myself but it was many years ago )I played the right song and all knew it was right, even the skipper. When the squall had passed, he resumed control.

I was not the skipper, and knew it to be so - he was the owner and it was his boat. But he came to me afterwards and admitted that in adversity, the leader takes over. To me it was his boat and he should do with her what he liked - until life was in danger and then I had to step in. I was NOT the skipper. However, I do have a well honed sense of self preservation! After many, many miles at sea together, we are still good friends (and I'm still married to his daughter!)

There are so many different scenarios at sea in leisure vessels that there cannot be a hard and fast rule. On my current boat, I run it as a family boat with all that that entails. However, I also have a very strong opinion that it should be run as if it were a professional vessel - poor kids! Yes agreed but at least the lifejackets/flares etc are up to speed. . .

As someone else on this forum highlights - experience generates good judgement!
 
Fireball, I have read this thread with interest, and I can't resist putting my two pennyworth in and argue against your case. I believe that ALL craft need someone who is acknowledged as being ultimately 'in charge'.

This is not for legal reasons - someone to sue if it all goes wrong, but simply because in the overwhelming majority of boats it works better that way.

The skipper doesn't have to be autocratic or overbearing, or even good at everything on board, but he/she MUST be good at getting the best out of the crew.

If you know my background, it will be no suprise to know that I think its called LEADERSHIP. Some call it 'man management', but that's not very PC nowadays.

You may be able to run your boat on an agreed sort of sail by committee basis, but 99% of crews sail better when they know someone is responsible for the ultimate decision about what happens. Perhaps the acid test is what happens when something goes wrong? You can't do emergencies 'by committee'. You can discuss where you are sailing, and where you are going. You can discuss sail trim and whether the person who is driving has just messed up, but 99% of people are happier that someone is actually 'in charge'.

It might not appeal to your human nature, but I have sailed on countless boats (and warships) and I truly believe that the way its been done for years is still good for a few more. There seems to be a sort of implication in some of your posts that people should 'evolve' out of this 'hierarchical structure'. Somehow we should all grow up into responsible people who can share responsibility. Whether this will happen in the future I cannot say, but I am confident that for the moment, most of need to have a skipper who takes charge when necessary, and LEADS - not dictates.

Some of the best skippers I have ever sailed with have a very 'light touch'. They allow others to make mistakes, but they also know how to encourage and keep the crew happy.

It helps if you all sail with a common objective. Some of the times I have had to work hard as skipper is when the crew don't all want the same thing. (For example, trying to run a racing boat where some people join for the social side of the regatta and some joined to race seriously.)

However I believe strongly that whatever the boat, and whatever the circumstances, someone ought to be nominated to be skipper.
 
Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

We have a similar arrangement to Fireball's. The skipper/owner is my partner, and I guess if the sh*t hit the fan, it would be him who got sued. However, for all the decisions - where to go, when to reef, whether to go out at all etc, the decisions are shared. If we disagree, we take the more cautious path - and the overruled one is not allowed to say I told you so, if it turns out to be the wrong decision. So the responsibility is shared, and we both feel comfortable with that.

We understand each other well enough that little needs to be said when tacking, mooring, picking up buoys etc, and there is no shouting at any time! The result is that we both enjoy it, and there are no disputes on whether to go sailing this weekend, or whether the house needs painting instead (the painting has to wait).

When a group of us chartered, one (not the most experienced) signed the papers as skipper, and then we each took a day skippering. When it was my turn I asked the most experienced person for advice, but he did not interfere even when he did not agree with the decisions. It worked very well, with only one minor mutiny!
 
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You may be able to run your boat on an agreed sort of sail by committee basis, but 99% of crews sail better when they know someone is responsible for the ultimate decision about what happens. Perhaps the acid test is what happens when something goes wrong? You can't do emergencies 'by committee'. You can discuss where you are sailing, and where you are going. You can discuss sail trim and whether the person who is driving has just messed up, but 99% of people are happier that someone is actually 'in charge'.

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Not really having had any emergencies in the big boat I can only give you an example from the dinghy racing with my dad in a laser2k ....
almost at the bottom of the first run, in first place the gybe goes wrong and the boat goes over, I manage to step over the side onto the board, dad sees this and starts getting the kite down, as this is going on I'm pulling the boat back upright and dad is scooped in - he goes straight to the tiller (he helms for the racing in the 2k) and I pop the kite back again only dropping 1 place - so we don't need a skipper - just knowledge that the otherone knows what needs to be done - and this comes from 30 years of sailing together.
 
Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

It sounds as though you sail without a dedicated skipper as well then.

I don't believe you need a skipper when the crew don't need to ask for confirmation of their decisions - I suppose this only happens when the crew have many years of experience in sailing together so instinctively know what the otherone will do.
 
John

I agree - a lot of boat crews need a skipper - even we have a skipper when we have guests on board for a sail (still joint skipper though). And when I take the boat out without other members of the family I will assume the role of skipper.

But for familiar crew probably in familiar water I don't believe there is any need for a skipper/Leader/whatever
 
Re: CHARTERING - who\'s skipper?

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Not really having had any emergencies in the big boat [unquote]

And there we have it. From losing a fender to a spinnaker wrap to discovering a tanker coming up your transom someONE has to say who does what and p.d.q. The decision(s) must be immediate, there's no time for debate, even if the decision proves to be wrong - that's what post mortems in the pub afterwards are for, but no on-the-spot committee meetings thank you.

In my experience many peeps are very glad that the responsibility is firmly on someone else's shoulders - it would spoil their holiday! What, get the forecast, passage plan, early night, earlier reveille, unblock the heads, whip a lanyard, replace a fuse, let alone all that delegating - phew, it could inhibit some serious quaffing of ale!
 
Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

When our boat was quite new (to us), and we were very inexperienced, we asked a more experienced couple to sail it over to the Kiel canal with us. Then my partner was skipper, despite his inexperience, and the friends offered advice but did not attempt to usurp the authority. Likewise, I was in charge of the navigation, and the friends apparently trusted my calculations and decisions and never questioned them. We learned a huge amount as a result, far more than if they had taken charge.

We have had other guests or crew since, and have kept the pattern of us being in joint charge, even when the guests are more experienced. I think the only problem was when a family relationship got in the way.

I think we are arguing about different things. If your relationships are up to it, the shared responsility works well, but in ALL other circumstances then someone probably needs to be acknowledged as skipper. If he/she can make the decisions without shouting at, over-ruling, ordering or offending the rest of the crew, and safely, then you have a good set up!
 
Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

It is nice to hear someone else who adopts the same model!
 
Re: \"how else do less experienced gain knowledge?\"

I see where you're coming from, but on our boat if someone takes over as skipper then they have to go the whole 9 yards and I'd be reluctant to interfere in any way unless they were doing something really dangerously silly.

The only crew who regularly takes on the skippers role has been sailing with me for over 6 years and thousands of miles. He's not about to do anything daft enough to justify me stepping in, and the other crew are in no doubt who's in charge

His style of leadership is very different from mine, but just as effective (or perhaps ineffective!)

But I do agree there has to be a skipper and wouldn't like to sail on board a boat where there's any doubt who is in charge
 
Different models

There are different ways for different boats & people; but you will find that the "skipper model" is most common.

I sail on my own boat, with wife & kids. The boat is the one area of my life where I'm am completely in charge and everyone accepts this.

Early on I tended to go a bit strict at times - remarks as "you're not in the navy now!" soon put that right. If I really went OTT I did not get fed and I had to sleep alone. After that you soon learn where the limits of your authority are.

After 5+ years of sailing together I now hardly have to say a word, but when I do everyone accepts this and acts upon it.

Want decent crew? Breed your own!
 
Re: Different models

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There are different ways for different boats & people; but you will find that the "skipper model" is most common.

I sail on my own boat, with wife & kids. The boat is the one area of my life where I'm am completely in charge and everyone accepts this.

Early on I tended to go a bit strict at times - remarks as "you're not in the navy now!" soon put that right. If I really went OTT I did not get fed and I had to sleep alone. After that you soon learn where the limits of your authority are.

After 5+ years of sailing together I now hardly have to say a word, but when I do everyone accepts this and acts upon it.

Want decent crew? Breed your own!

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Some of that sounds familiar!

SWMBO says I am so laid back nowadays, she wonders I don't fall overboard. The wonderful thing is that the children (now 15 and 14) still LOVE sailing. They are already moaning that by half term the boat will be out of the water. Having said that, daughter has just negotiated to varnish the washboards in half term... (Her idea, not mine!)
 
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