Chartering - should most experienced person always be skipper?

[Vega1447]

Hi.
This is an issue that comes up now and again. A group of friends do bare boat charters twice a year. Initially Bill is skipper without discussion as he has much more experience. As years go by other crew members become more experienced (though still a lot less than Cap'n Bill) and naturally want to take on the job.

Bill is a decent skin and agrees.

Is he right to do so and if are there any tips on how to run a boat happily with a less experienced person as skipper and a more experienced person in the background?

John

 

[Talbot]

How else do the less experienced gain knowledge!

 

[MarkG]

Very good idea for others to take the Skippers role. Its an ideal intermediate step between being crew and full skipper. As long as Bill doesn't do too much back seat driving...

 

[bilbobaggins]

There are several models of skippers in rec boating....

There is the 'I'm very good at this, I can do it all myself. Your role is to appreciate my excellence, and lend a hand now and then with the inconsequential stuff' type.

There is the 'I own the boat, I'm not very bothered about doing anything very well, and I happily settle for muddling through anything that crops up, as it crops up. Whether that's a fresh hole in the gelcoat or head-to-head with a supertanker, it's all part of the fun - and you need to fit in with that or ship out.'

Then there's the 'I've done this a bit, and know some of the stuff quite well. Other stuff, I usually have to think about. If you can contribute in some of those areas, great. Then we'll all get something good out of the day....'

The captain of an RN destroyer is not necessarily the best comms specialist, bang up-to-date on the latest radar system, or even really, really good at reversing it out of the dockyard. The Admiralty gives him other guys and gals to help with that. And part of the deal is that he (she ?) brings 'em on by giving them incremental responsibility. He is expected to be really, really good at the 'people' stuff.

Your skipper-mate Bill is quite right in agreeing to be a supportive and experenced crew member for others. It's VIP that the newbie skippers agree to consult and consider input offered, but make their own decisions. It's also VIP that all else work to make the newbie skipper's decisions work out.

It sounds like a strong crew - so build on those strengths.


/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[fireball]

Do you actually NEED a skipper?

Surely you all agree to what you're going to be doing each day and where you'll end up at night so as long as the CREW are happy at handling the boat you don't have a SKIPPER ... just a group who are capable of controlling the boat and each add in their strengths (Ok - I'll put the kettle on then!).

 

[Sailfree]

Sorry but historically ships have skippers so that someone is ultimately in charge especially when it all goes wrong and a democratic committee to run a ship has never really caught on as a good idea. Could be a good discussion point for another thread.

As a person with a charter boat I would like the person who is financially responsible for any losses (credit card on the Deposit form) to be the skipper. I think it sharpens the judgement when it come to deciding whether there is enough water to pass over those rocks rather than go round them!

As skipper on my own boat I am happy to delegate the role to any friend that I think is competent and is prepared to complete a passage plan do the provisioning trip to the supermarket etc. I would keep a watchful eye on them though but believe they are entitled to make mistakes and even be downtide of Cherbourg on approach BUT I would want to be able to step in and advise if I considered either a life or my boat in danger!!

We all learn from mistakes but I find money focuses the mind a little better!

There are old skippers ,there are bold skippers but there are no bold old skippers!!

 

[kds]

Have you tried taking the role for a day each ? I have seen it work well - and badly. Depends on the goodwill and goodsense of the crew.
Ken

 

[doris]

Legal side

What happens if something goes wrong, a body gets hurt and their dependents claim that since Bill was there he was negligent in letting the incident happen even if he was not skipper. The concept of 'duty of care' arises. If he is the only one with paper qualifications this applies even more so. We live in a litigeous society and it's a pity.

 

[tome]

We ocasionally sail with one of my crew as skipper, even though I could pull rank in terms of experience and qualifications

It works well provided the skipper is truly responsible for the passage. That means passage planning, choice of sails, provisioning and watch rotas

I only once took over during the early days as it was obvious that he wasn't taking on the entire role. He accepted this and learned from it. Never happened since

I quite enjoy taking a back seat and have the reassurance that there's someone else on board who I could trust if anything happened to me

 

[fireball]

Re: Legal side

Well - I don't know about anyone else - but I'm not going to follow legal proceedings against anyone I sail with - even if they cause an accident.
As for the financially responsible - this can be agreed to be split equally amoungst the crew - now who is in charge?

The notion that a single person is called "Skipper" is a little outdated and complete nonsense in a lot of cases - I do accept that quite often you will get one person in a team who is more experienced than the others and is likely to get final say.

Surely the encouragement should be for the crew to pull together as one rather than expect one skipper to make the decisions.

 

[flaming]

Re: Legal side

[ QUOTE ]
Surely the encouragement should be for the crew to pull together as one rather than expect one skipper to make the decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally disagree. I've been on boats where there's been no discussion as to who was skipper (with 4 comercial yachtmasters and a yachtmaster examiner on board) and the result was chaos.
Every boat needs a skipper. It doesn't have to be the most experienced person, or the one who pays the bills, but there has to be someone who is making the decisions. Other people can have an input, but when the decision is made there should be no more debate. It's a simple matter of safety.

It is actually the hardest thing about being a skipper - going back to just being crew!

 

[tcm]

Nah - if you can step in - you\'re skipper

They aren't really the skipper if you can "step in" when things get iffy. They're *pretending* to be skipper, they're being first mate, number one, or whatever.

They're skipper if/when they can naysay whatever you say, imho. In other words, whoever can "step in" is actually skipper and should be recognised as such. I spose it could potentially be dangrous to pretend therwise: otherwise the numpty newbie could unilaterally lead the boat and crew into all sorts of mess in terms of preparation etc and eventually the real skipper takes over - tho perhaps a bit late.

You can remain skipper doing nearly sod all, even having a snooze. Loads and loads of decisions don't need to be run past you, though youmonitor the situation etc etc.

As ultimately best sailor by quite a margin, bill in the original post should remain skipper. But he should be able to say to someone "you take over today/this week" and help crew or even make a cup of tea. But he's still skipper: in an ultimate scenario where an "either-or" decision means doing what the newbieskip says OR doing what Bill says, then Bill should prevail.

You can be on a skipper on a crusing sailing boat and yet let others who want to do the nav, helm, handle sails, dock the boat, everything. But you'e still the skipper cos you *could* step in - even if you actually never do so. Imho.

 

[Pie]

Re: Nah - if you can step in - you\'re skipper

My understanding is a skipper is solely responsible for governing that the yacht is sailed safely and thus take responsiblity if not, that’s enough of a burden. The rest is up for grabs IMHO and using the best of the resources and skills present. So for example unless a situation dictates otherwise a skipper should not helm or undertake tasks that deem them unavailable for other matters .............. like drinking.

 

[ColinHuggins]

Re: Legal necessity

[ QUOTE ]
"I'm not going to follow legal proceedings against anyone I sail with - even if they cause an accident"[unquote]

Hah, YOU may not - but how about the Third Party who was hit, sunk, drowned as a result of your Committee's decision? The law insists that only one name be on the charter agreement, registration certificate, whatever.

Having a Skipper is NOT antidiluvian, it actually works best in practice. And a good one will be so inconspicuous you'll hardly know he's there. Unless he's the Owner of course, and having Him on board is a whole can o' worms!

I have encouraged scores of potential skippers to go off and do their own thing over the years, and every one has come back with stories of basic failures that they took for granted when not in charge. The most common moan? "I couldn't get them up in the morning".

Yes, a Committee can decide that they want to sail to X tomorrow, can work out the tides, can agree on the time to leave. But only one [--word removed--] sets the alarm, gets up at crack of dawn, puts the kettle on, starts the engine and pulls the On Watch out of their bunks.

That person is called the Skipper.

 

[fireball]

Re: Legal necessity

Hmm - I seem to have 2 on my vessel then ....

SWMBO sets the alarm
SWMBO gets ME up at crack of dawn ...
I put the kettle on
SWMBO starts the engine
Either of us cast off
Both of us decide where we're going, what sail we setting etc.

Boat is registered to the two owners ....
3rd party can claim through my FULLY COMP insurance.

 

[flaming]

Re: Legal necessity

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm - I seem to have 2 on my vessel then ....

SWMBO sets the alarm
SWMBO gets ME up at crack of dawn ...
I put the kettle on
SWMBO starts the engine
Either of us cast off
Both of us decide where we're going, what sail we setting etc.

Boat is registered to the two owners ....
3rd party can claim through my FULLY COMP insurance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simple question is this then. If you made a mistake (e.g speeding on the hamble etc) which of you would be up before the court? That person is the skipper.

 

[fireball]

Re: Legal necessity

Luckily we cannot speed .... we can motor at 5.5knots!! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Difficult question to answer - SWMBO is usually on the helm as we come into a port as I am running around putting out fenders (other raggies do cut too close sometimes! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) and lines .... so I guess - whoever is on the helm ...

Now - if we set the autopilot can we claim he is responsible?! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[Pie]

Re: Legal necessity

[ QUOTE ]
Luckily we cannot speed .... we can motor at 5.5knots!! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Difficult question to answer - SWMBO is usually on the helm as we come into a port as I am running around putting out fenders (other raggies do cut too close sometimes! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif) and lines .... so I guess - whoever is on the helm ...

Now - if we set the autopilot can we claim he is responsible?! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The person helming at the time is irrelevant to the person who takes responsibility, or is that a joke?

(Read the whole thread further up, sorry a joke)

 

[Amphitrite]

Re: Legal necessity

The initial scenario is what has happened to my crew and me after some years. I am happy to have competent crew members (most have Coastal Skipper) and sometimes even a marine engineer onboard. Some of them are happy sailing just as crew-members, others prefer to take responsibilities as watchleaders or first mate.
Those who volunteer as first mate are usually interested in skippering themselves one day, so I asign tasks to them ("do the navigation up that river") or let them act as "Skipper of the day". This implies that I will let them do the complete passage from planing to sailing/navigation and docking, but I will have a watchful (yet hidden) eye about what they do. Only in case of emergency or if something goes dangerously wrong, I will overrule there orders. But every one onboard knows that I still have the final word, because I sign the logbook in the bottom right corner and am responsible for the crew and the ship.

 

[Guest]

Re: Legal necessity

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But only one [--word removed--] sets the alarm, gets up at crack of dawn, puts the kettle on, starts the engine and pulls the On Watch out of their bunks.

That person is called the Skipper.

[/ QUOTE ]
No it isn't. I'm the skipper (I think so anyway /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif) and I normally have to be dragged out of bed by the crew.

As Lamartine said, during the 1848 Revolution: "Je suis leur chef, il faut que je les suive!" (for the linguistically challenged: "I am their leader, I must follow them!")