Charterers beware

A couple of suggestions for the future. Always check the age of the boat before charterting: don't take one less then one year old things that are going to break do so early; two to three years old is optimum.

I've said this many times but use www.latesail.com they guarantee not to be beaten on price and only use the large and medium size companies which they vet.

There is a Greek company that regularly gets complaints about old boats - Kiriacoulis. They do have new Cats though.
 
The age isn't necessarily an issue if the boats are well cared for. We generally charter with Moorings or Sunsail but the first family sailing holiday we did was on a flotilla with Setsail out of Poros. Some of their boats were a few years old but all were in excellent condition and everything worked as it should.
 
RupertW said:
I'm with Jimi here to a certain extent. The service sounds terrible and the deposit withholding too. But I wouldn't see fire extinguishers and non-compliant lifejackets as much of an issue for a week or two in such lovely benign and busy waters.
Click to expand...

Skipper2008 said:
Seriously? My God.

So there's not likely to be a fire on the boat because the place is nice? As for lifejackets, what about people falling overboard unconscious? Even in a busy area, somebody face down in the water will most likely not live to tell the tale, even if ten boats get to them within a few minutes.

Boats have caught fire and people have drowned in marinas - you don't get much more benign and busy than that.

I sincerely hope that I have taken your statement above the wrong way, and that it was intended as sarcasm. :confused:
Click to expand...

Skipper2008: I concur with RupertW - don't you think your statement is somewhat OTT?
How accident-prone can you be?

FWIW: the year before last I found that the lifejacket gas cartridges had expired. I brought the LJs home to take care of it.
Just checked: the LJs are still on the 'boat pile' in the garage.

A couple of weeks ago, we took some friends sailing (first time aboard our boat).
Safety brief: mind your head & stay on the boat.

Some people can get so safety concious/paranoid that it can spoil their enjoyment of actually sailing.
 
A1Sailor said:
Mr Steelfish,
Why the sudden interest in the thread after a gap of 8 months? Did you come across it by accident, and resurrect it for the public benefit? If so, very good of you.:rolleyes:

A1
Click to expand...

I see your sarcasm and raise you 2 tongues :p:p

I was made aware of this thread by Giles' misses, Mrs. Bointon, who wrote a detailed review and rated every part of their charter this week on YCA (the site I maintain to track charter service quality). I'm in the process of trying to get a statement from VPM Bestsail and Latesail, then I'll write an article on the YCA blog.

I'm not Mr. Giles (no way to prove it without IP addresses displayed, Giles is in UK and I'm in Colorado). As a charter sailor I do believe there is (public?) benefit to tracking charter service quality and boat condition. I'm not drumming up "business", I already have a job (software engineer), YCA is a hobby of mine. There's no cost to participate and share your charter experiences on YCA. I enjoy researching the charter reviews for authenticity and have become quite good at it, I get 3 to 1 false positive reviews from charter professionals over false negative reviews from charter sailors. The charter pros can always challenge any review and I'll dig deeper.

YCA benefits charter pros too. It's hard to get any cooperation from them though as they're understandably concerned about what to do with negative reviews; they believe online reviews should be like testimonials and throw away the bad ones. On the contrary, the very few bad reviews are what make all the good ones believable. An empathetic and professional response to a bad review can have very positive benefits - pre-booked clients prefer their charter providers to be authentic and transparent.

EXAMPLE response to negative review: "...we set proper expectations, did everything within reason to recover the unfortunate situation, the circumstances were beyond our control. Mr. X was obviously qualified and understandably upset but simply not open to our concessions, maybe next time he will opt in for the travel insurance. We'd welcome another chance, but still will not have any control over the weather."

With all the threats of law suits and bodily harm I get from charter professionals I know I'm doing some good. My grandad used to say "...you know your over the target when you're receiving flak." ;)

Go on, have a look at the YCA site. I promise, I won't know if you peeked, I don't receive any revenue and don't brag about site analytics - the benefit is truly for charter, nothing more. (ok, I do get to stay crisp with my web coding and thwarting hackers to my server, it's an intellectual benefit.)
 
Robin said:
Personally I find it suspicious however genuine it is when the very first post from someone is used to blacken the name of a business.
Click to expand...

I think Robin has answered this nicely back in Febuary!

The continued capital letters naming of the company, I assume to attract google searches etc a bit of a giveaway...

We quoted a big extension a few years back. Sh!t tip of a house, junk everywhere, smelly etc and by their own admission trying to sell a flat to pay for work which was way above their budget.

They pumped us for info regarding the build, planning, permitted development, party wall etc.

We spent a couple of days preparing a quote and basic cad design plan and then heard nothing for 3 years. They then emailed with a massive list of changes which we took a few weeks to process. In short - time wasters.

Between the email and our response they viciously slagged off my company on a local forum which generates a lot of our business. We searched the posters history, identified them from an email link in an item of furniture they were trying to sell....they were a little surprised when confronted, the denial then realisation that we had nailed them priceless!
 
RupertW said:
But I wouldn't see fire extinguishers and non-compliant lifejackets as much of an issue for a week or two in such lovely benign and busy waters. Anything chartered for 7 years will be scruffy quote]


So faulty lifejackets & fire extinguishers only become an issue AFTER 2 weeks then. So people do not drown if it is sunny weather. Oh great thanks for the assurance!
Why should one have to expect a scruffy boat?
In this day & age these things should be first class we should not accept shoddy service
Click to expand...
 
Boat fires happen, you reach for the extinguisher and is not working - but that's OK cos it's a charter yacht?????? I'm amazed what some people posting on here believe is acceptable. Ditto the life jackets. Companies get away with **** service because they are allowed to by customers who put it all down to "experience".
 
When chartering a yacht I expect it to be seaworthy, safe and comfortable.

For only a few days holiday I don't have time to be tinkering to get things working.

I accept you can get unexpected gear failures but I would expect the charter company to fix them quickly without quibble or offer an alternate boat if the failure prevents further use of the boat.

I use Tripadvisor as a useful reference source when choosing hotels and restaurants. However, I take all reviews on balance.

If there are many positive reviews and only one too negatives, I'll discount those.

If many reviews are negative I tend to steer clear.

A similar online review service for charter companies can only be a good thing.

This is the snagging list from my last charter yacht...


  1. Broken bin in galley (minor inconvenience but irritating on a luxury yacht)
  2. Radio not working...no antenna
  3. BBQ missing*. (base manager supplied one he took from a neighbouring boat)
  4. Gas safety devices removed or bypassed (worrying)
  5. Kill switch on outboard disconnected/ bypassed
  6. No paddle/ oar for tender
  7. No bung in tender.
  8. Worn rollers on starboard jib fairlead (not a big deal but could be a point of failure which would have been an issue).
  9. Worn and broken rollers on main traveller fairlead. (made moving the traveller very hard work when tacking).
  10. Reefing lines rigged the wrong way round so there is a kink in the leech of the main because the 2nd reefing line is too short.
  11. Wrong spec shackle on starboard davit pulley required lashing for strength (worried that the tender would fall off the davit Everytime we launched and recovered it. It was also an unnecessary fiddle having to undo and redo the lashing Everytime for what should have been a 2 second job).
  12. Missing 12 volt outlet on fly bridge (minor inconvenience).
  13. Log not working.
  14. Wind speed readout not working.

I'm sure others have had worse but considering the boat had been delivered from another base by a professional crew you'd have thought these things would have been picked up and rectified before we took over.
 
Just sounds like somebody who has had a bad experience and wants everybody to know about it. He said he was taking legal action, so maybe he will get what he wants. He has not returned in over 6 months so don't think anybody should lose any sleep about it.
 
dylanwinter said:
This thread is rather odd and unsettles me somewhat

I sincerely hope that there is not an element of sock puppetry going on around this story

http://www.yacht-forum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=1412

http://gbointon.blogspot.co.uk/

if I am wrong then I apologise to all concerned


Dylan


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)
Click to expand...

Great analogy Dylan - it's smart and safe to be skeptical of the review, the reviewer and the professionals involved. I've verified the authenticity of 247 charter reviews from 168 YCA members since 2007, it's not enough data to make broad claims in an annual report but does give an idea of the general service quality and boat conditions found in the industry. Have a look at the number of red/yellow/green place marks around the world (select Display:[100]), not too bad overall. From old school survey industry data and modern online review data I find the charter industry (as compared to related holiday service industries) tracks very close; 80% average/positive and 20% negative. The trick is to avoid the 20% and take responsibility for allowing the 80% to put their best foot forward (be friendly and easy to work with, smile, you're going sailing!).

The review is authentic. When Mrs. Bointon wrote her review on YachtCharterAdvisor.com, per our T&C's, she commissioned 1) guidance to limit exposure to litigation (no guidance needed here) and 2) verification of the review's authenticity. Her review scored 7-7 on YCA's (proprietary) verification index + offered written confirmation from VPM Bestsail (date, location, vessel) that addressed many of the charter complaints.

To be fair, it's important to put "one review" into perspective. The YCA Assurance Index defines 1 review, positive or negative, as "Low Assurance - Charter Value is possible but should be verified". Before we hang our collective YCA Dixie Cup on the expected service quality or boat condition there must be 7 or more verified reviews within a year.

Even more fair, TravelTalkOnline.com (TTOL) has a VPM Bestsail thread from March-2012 which gives *unverified* credence to the idea that this company, like many others, is capable of satisfying their customers.

I'll see if I can convince the TTOL member Miken (84.92.118.35, also UK, like Giles) to write a VPM Bestsail review on YCA. The independent YCA verification would begin to create a meaningful scorecard on the company's service quality. ;)
 
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snowleopard said:
Automatic lifejackets have dates on them. In UK waters a charter company who supplied out-of-date jackets would lose its coding very smartly. In the Caribbean regulations are less rigorously enforced, if at all. You only find out whether they work when your life depends on it!
Click to expand...

We chartered last year with sailingholidays.com for a flotilla holiday (we wanted something totally stress free. no destinatination issues and local knowlage of best/easiest places to visit.)
OK the boat was 30 years old (maybe a bit less but we knew this when we booked) and we were quite pleased. The holiday ticked all the boxes it cost in total 1030 UK pounds for both of us for 1 week including insurance, transfers and taxes the only thing we paid for was airport parking and food.
The safety standards were pretty good the life jackets were the fixed buoyancy type but there was no liferaft, however with the sailing we were doing (Mainland Greece, Paxos, Antipaxos, Corfu. Mainland Greece) we were never out of sight of land and we had an inflateable dingy with us I never felt unsafe, however as the owner of a 27 foot UK charter boat it was very different. My boat is certified for 4 persons for up to 60 miles from a safe haven, I have to have six lifejackets (for 4 people just incase 2 don't work) a liferaft with an auto release, two lifebelts, a shedload of flares, the list goes on and on. I would highly reccomend sailingholidays.com providing your expectations are not too high. for what we paid we had an unforgettable experience.
 
FistralG said:
When chartering a yacht I expect it to be seaworthy, safe and comfortable.

For only a few days holiday I don't have time to be tinkering to get things working.

I accept you can get unexpected gear failures but I would expect the charter company to fix them quickly without quibble or offer an alternate boat if the failure prevents further use of the boat.

I use Tripadvisor as a useful reference source when choosing hotels and restaurants. However, I take all reviews on balance.

If there are many positive reviews and only one too negatives, I'll discount those.

If many reviews are negative I tend to steer clear.

A similar online review service for charter companies can only be a good thing.

This is the snagging list from my last charter yacht...


  1. Broken bin in galley (minor inconvenience but irritating on a luxury yacht)
  2. Radio not working...no antenna
  3. BBQ missing*. (base manager supplied one he took from a neighbouring boat)
  4. Gas safety devices removed or bypassed (worrying)
  5. Kill switch on outboard disconnected/ bypassed
  6. No paddle/ oar for tender
  7. No bung in tender.
  8. Worn rollers on starboard jib fairlead (not a big deal but could be a point of failure which would have been an issue).
  9. Worn and broken rollers on main traveller fairlead. (made moving the traveller very hard work when tacking).
  10. Reefing lines rigged the wrong way round so there is a kink in the leech of the main because the 2nd reefing line is too short.
  11. Wrong spec shackle on starboard davit pulley required lashing for strength (worried that the tender would fall off the davit Everytime we launched and recovered it. It was also an unnecessary fiddle having to undo and redo the lashing Everytime for what should have been a 2 second job).
  12. Missing 12 volt outlet on fly bridge (minor inconvenience).
  13. Log not working.
  14. Wind speed readout not working.

I'm sure others have had worse but considering the boat had been delivered from another base by a professional crew you'd have thought these things would have been picked up and rectified before we took over.
Click to expand...

FistralG - nice ears! Would you be so kind as to write a review of your charter experience at YachtCharterAdvisor.com? With our charter specific review site (since 2007) we sort out what went right from what went wrong and help charter sailors find better charter value. Let me know if I can assist, we can accept your review view phone or email too. Cheers!
 
Steelfish said:
FistralG - nice ears! Would you be so kind as to write a review of your charter experience at YachtCharterAdvisor.com? With our charter specific review site (since 2007) we sort out what went right from what went wrong and help charter sailors find better charter value. Let me know if I can assist, we can accept your review view phone or email too. Cheers!
Click to expand...
I wandered over to have a look at the site, very disappointing.
 
Steelfish said:
Great analogy Dylan - it's smart and safe to be skeptical of the review, the reviewer and the professionals involved. I've verified the authenticity of 247 charter reviews from 168 YCA members since 2007, it's not enough data to make broad claims in an annual report but does give an idea of the general service quality and boat conditions found in the industry. Have a look at the number of red/yellow/green place marks around the world (select Display:[100]), not too bad overall. From old school survey industry data and modern online review data I find the charter industry (as compared to related holiday service industries) tracks very close; 80% average/positive and 20% negative. The trick is to avoid the 20% and take responsibility for allowing the 80% to put their best foot forward (be friendly and easy to work with, smile, you're going sailing!).

The review is authentic. When Mrs. Bointon wrote her review on YachtCharterAdvisor.com, per our T&C's, she commissioned 1) guidance to limit exposure to litigation (no guidance needed here) and 2) verification of the review's authenticity. Her review scored 7-7 on YCA's (proprietary) verification index + offered written confirmation from VPM Bestsail (date, location, vessel) that addressed many of the charter complaints.

To be fair, it's important to put "one review" into perspective. The YCA Assurance Index defines 1 review, positive or negative, as "Low Assurance - Charter Value is possible but should be verified". Before we hang our collective YCA Dixie Cup on the expected service quality or boat condition there must be 7 or more verified reviews within a year.

Even more fair, TravelTalkOnline.com (TTOL) has a VPM Bestsail thread from March-2012 which gives *unverified* credence to the idea that this company, like many others, is capable of satisfying their customers.

I'll see if I can convince the TTOL member Miken (84.92.118.35, also UK, like Giles) to write a VPM Bestsail review on YCA. The independent YCA verification would begin to create a meaningful scorecard on the company's service quality. ;)
Click to expand...

Well Mr Steelfish, I do hope that you are not trying to claim that the contents of your site are representative of the charter business. Do you seriously expect anybody to think that 247 sets of information from 168 people worldwide in 5 years is a reflection of the "industry". I am sure they are "authentic" in the sense that the authors of the reports had the experience they claimed, but they are not "independent", but one sided, self selected pieces of data.

There are literally 10's of thousands of charter contracts each year, so it would not be surprising that a few do not work as expected. The ones reported on your site are not representative in any statistical way and other than showing the sort of things that can go wrong, are not a basis for any rational choice of operator.

Based on your data of 20% negative there have been less than 50 negative experiences in 5 years, or 10 a year, or if the 20% also applies to individuals, 6 a year. Not really anything to get excited (or worried) about!
 
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