'Charter sailing-when things go bad'

mjcoon said:
I just looked that up: on the resurgent volcano in the caldera? I didn't know that had a parking place; it doesn't look sheltered. Our problem was, of course, the weather, as ever in the Med! The point of mentioning the size of a yacht is that I gather the Santorini marinas are restricted in depth and we were large enough to take average conditions in our stride. We had quite a bumpy ride back to Ios and it was not a lightly made decision, as you can imagine...
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I have sailed the Cyclades for nearly 20 years, a lot of my friends are professional charter boat skippers or instructors at Aegina sailing school. You will very rarely find I, or them, going to Santorini, As you mentioned there is not a safe harbour for a yacht with a draft over 2 meters
That said, lots of inexperienced bareboat charters think it their right of passage, to risk the boat and crew on this journey which can either be benign or very scary.
 
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dslittle said:
I do feel for them. We got hit by an isolated gale off Corfu a few years ago. 'Luckily' we had dropped all sail as we watched it approaching. Despite that, we had two knockdowns and lost the instruments due to a near lightening strike. We did have sea room and headed out to run with it. I couldn't see our bow which was 30' away. It lasted an hour and then the sun came out again...
I think a cat would have flipped, we came back up both times.
All quite frightening. I emphasise with their relief once they got into the lee.
The Med can spring a few surprises!!!
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I can't really see how a large underway cat is ever going to flip if the sails are down unless it is caught in a much larger breaking wave.

Richard
 
rtboss1 said:
I have sailed the Cyclades for nearly 20 years, a lot of my friends are professional charter boat skippers or instructors at Aegina sailing school. You will very rarely find I, or them, going to Santorini, As you mentioned there is not a safe harbour for a yacht with a draft over 2 meters.
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This was with https://seafarersailing.co.uk/cabin-charter/cyclades/

So it is a commercial deal...

Mike.
 
Thank you for all your comments. Unbelievable the way the conditions changed so quickly - from fresh to a howling demon in minutes. I don't blame those involved for looking so relieved after it was all over. And if I am in sailing in the area and want to visit those places, maybe I will get the ferry!

Fair Winds
Lizman
 
Speaking as someone that has never sailed in anything even approaching those conditions I'm amazed at how much a yacht will heel with no sails up (or nearly none anyway). I would have thought a few tonnes of ballast would be enough to keep some bare poles more upright than that. You live and learn.
 
fredrussell said:
Speaking as someone that has never sailed in anything even approaching those conditions I'm amazed at how much a yacht will heel with no sails up (or nearly none anyway). I would have thought a few tonnes of ballast would be enough to keep some bare poles more upright than that. You live and learn.
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It's quite illuminating to try to calculate the wind loading on the hull and rigging. I did it for my boat when Hurricane Ophelia was being hyped, as she was on the hard at the time. I just used the basic Tay Bridge Inquiry figure of 50lb/sqft (without safety margin) and neglected the rigging, so hardly an accurate figure but...

Edit: I know someone who claimed a sustained 7Kts boat speed under bare poles when crossing Biscay in a F10. Think he got an awful lot more than that on the downhill stretches though.
 
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Leaving aside the lack of forethought or preparation, my first instinct as a beginner would be to turn the boat into the wind. Some comments recommend run with it; apart from avoiding a beam sea why run instead of putting the bows into the wind and waves?

Secondly, how practical would it be to drop a jammed, half furled jib in those conditions? I’ve freed a jammed furler in a strong wind and wouldn't like to try dropping the sail in that situation.
 
Running off the wind will reduce the apparent wind as you subtract your boat speed through the water from the true wind. Going into the wind has the opposite effect. Unless you mean turning into the wind in the hope of just letting the sails flap, in which case the boat starts going backwards, the bow blows off and things get messy.
 
I reasoned that it may be as simple as reducing the apparent speed but with the quoted 70 knots, would a few more make much difference? Towards the end of the video it sounded like they had the engine on so could potentially have used the motor to head up.

We came in to port in a F8 gale this summer and needed at least two or three knots through the water to maintain any steerage without the bows being blown off. I guess the winds they quoted may need more that the engine could deliver to keep the bows into the wind.
 
Baddox said:
Leaving aside the lack of forethought or preparation, my first instinct as a beginner would be to turn the boat into the wind. Some comments recommend run with it; apart from avoiding a beam sea why run instead of putting the bows into the wind and waves?

Secondly, how practical would it be to drop a jammed, half furled jib in those conditions? I’ve freed a jammed furler in a strong wind and wouldn't like to try dropping the sail in that situation.
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With the reduced area of the jib and no main it should've been relatively easy to keep the boat under control on a broad reach. As you're going with the waves they have much less effect on you (it can be quite fun when you know what you're doing when the boat starts surfing). In addition, as Stevie69p says, the faster you broad reach off the less apparent wind you feel.

Going head to wind you increase the apparent wind, drive hard into the waves which increases the motion of the boat and as as the video shows if the sails are left to flap violently they don't last long.

It actually takes a better helmsman to control a boat going up wind in heavy weather than downwind (I'm talking part furled headsail rather than kite up). Very easy for an inattentive one to cause the sails to flog or to come too far off the wind and put the boat on its side. Especially considering the waves will be bashing the bows off pretty regularly.

In terms of the second question, it's quite difficult to get a furling genny down in heavy weather as the first thing you have to do is unfurl it. It's much more difficult than on a racer where you might be getting a #3 or #4 down to get the storm jib up.

If I'd been skipper on that boat my first concerns wouldn't have been unjamming the furler. It would've been trimming the sail and getting the best helmsman on the wheel so they boat was under control. Immediately afterward it would be determining we were on a safe course and putting in place some means to monitor that given that the boat would be eating up miles quickly - not sure if he had anyone who could hold a chart the right way up though. Only when things were calmed down and everything was under control would I clip on and go forward to have a look. Or if I had a mechanically adept crew member send him forward.
 
lpdsn said:
With the reduced area of the jib and no main it should've been relatively easy to keep the boat under control on a broad reach. As you're going with the waves they have much less effect on you (it can be quite fun when you know what you're doing when the boat starts surfing). In addition, as Stevie69p says, the faster you broad reach off the less apparent wind you feel.

Going head to wind you increase the apparent wind, drive hard into the waves which increases the motion of the boat and as as the video shows if the sails are left to flap violently they don't last long.

It actually takes a better helmsman to control a boat going up wind in heavy weather than downwind (I'm talking part furled headsail rather than kite up). Very easy for an inattentive one to cause the sails to flog or to come too far off the wind and put the boat on its side. Especially considering the waves will be bashing the bows off pretty regularly.

In terms of the second question, it's quite difficult to get a furling genny down in heavy weather as the first thing you have to do is unfurl it. It's much more difficult than on a racer where you might be getting a #3 or #4 down to get the storm jib up.

If I'd been skipper on that boat my first concerns wouldn't have been unjamming the furler. It would've been trimming the sail and getting the best helmsman on the wheel so they boat was under control. Immediately afterward it would be determining we were on a safe course and putting in place some means to monitor that given that the boat would be eating up miles quickly - not sure if he had anyone who could hold a chart the right way up though. Only when things were calmed down and everything was under control would I clip on and go forward to have a look. Or if I had a mechanically adept crew member send him forward.
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Agree with all of that but would hope that it's a small number of minutes to get someone up forward. We sail with just two of us in nearby waters and zero to 40 plus is a normal event so best policy of all is to look around as you usually get anything from 30 to 10 minutes warning and searoom is easy even if inconvenient to change your dinner plans. Unjamming a furler is just one of those things but avoiding being clobbered by a flogging jib is serious and broad reaching is your best chance.
 
As the crew seemed inexperienced before I started trying to fix the problem I'd have got them lifrjacketed up and clipped on, having a MOB would have deteriorated the situation no end. That PanPan was woeful too.
 
mm42 said:
As the crew seemed inexperienced before I started trying to fix the problem I'd have got them lifrjacketed up and clipped on, having a MOB would have deteriorated the situation no end. That PanPan was woeful too.
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You're right about a MoB, but that's more or less what they did and it cost them a sail. Might've been easier to send those who couldn't help down below (to get their lifejackets).
 
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