Andrew_Fanner
Well-Known Member
The WIF setup sounds like a very wise plan, especially for those of us who must confirm to the BSS and thus tend not to have see through filter bowls. Winter project methinks.
Changes to Uk boat fuel
- Thread starter mjf
- Start date
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
When you were specing the new Sq, you didn't forget the electric shut off valves on the breathers, surely ?
I have found the perfect answer to Winter fuel tank condensation....................... Cod fishing. Two or three trips each month keeps the fuel turning over nicely
mjf
Well-Known Member
Very interesting jfm, where does the alarm show? At both or just main helm??
Is it a volvo alarm on Sq58?
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
My suppliers said:
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Maybe, but there again the refinery has to continue producing several thousand litres per day of gas oil to send to the airport, so not too difficult to divert some to the marinas.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Nick,
Your customer base is is going to fall into the requrement of the directve as you run a fuel pontoon in the Solent, who exactly are you going to legally sell the old high sulphur fuel to?
As to aiports, if the gas oil is intended for 'off road machinery' that will also have to comply with 2009/30/EC come Jan 1.
Let me confirm what I said way way back. Other than on a few very old engines lubricity will not be a issue. It is just the potential bio problem boaters have to address.
mjf
Well-Known Member
It is just the potential bio problem boaters have to address.
and that in most cases centres around proper filter use - correct?
and that in most cases centres around proper filter use - correct?
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Having read the directive, consulted the BMF and my supplier, you are the only person who is telling me this. Please demonstrate to me where the Solent is included in Categorised Waters.
I am going to sell what the refinery produce, delivered by the wholesaler, just like the majority of other marinas in the same position, to all the boats who will not be affected by the directive. Subject to confirmation from them, it will not contain any biofuel.
Implementation of this is also subject to ongoing discussion, as I understand it.
I agree with this, for boats in Categorised Waters, ie inland waterways. To imply that this applies to all leisure boats, including coastal, is a very much a minority view at present. As such, you should refrain from scaremongering (maybe trying to drum up business?), which causes unnecessary concern to boat owners many of whom are already struggling in the current financial climate.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Absolutely,
I have been doing a report for a commercial vessel operator as to the impact of sulphur free fuels on the various engines in their vessels. Many engines may actually perform better, however they are to a man paranoid for pretty much no reason.
Why am I clear that we are all more likely to be getting the new fuel?
With two gas oil standards about, fuel distributors will have to employ rigid housekeeping in order not to get in mire for selling the wrong fuel to say an of road equipment operator and becoming liable for causing thousands of pounds worth of aftertreatment damage and likely prosecution for selling the illegal fuel, far simpler and safer to hold just the one standard.
Where is the only place in the country where you will be able to source both standards of gas oil, Southampton. What will you get in Southampton, the new fuel.
Why? The Solent was designated an inland waterway for back as I can remember, ferry and commercial operators wanted lower insurance and manning levels associated with inland waters, therefore regardless of anything else pretty everybody obtaining fuel in the Solent falls into the catch all of this legislation.
Also applies to Scottish islands as well.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
There are two separate issues here, which seem to be continually ignored and confused.
1) New legislation means a new sulphur free fuel will have to be used by certain groups from Jan 2010.
2) Rather than spend £££££'s blending and storing a new fuel (sulphur free gas oil), it has been suggested that refineries/suppliers might simply supply white road diesel, with an added red marker dye.
The above poses two separate and different sets of problems.
It may of course turn out that marinas based in coastal waters will carry on supplying gas oil as it is now. There seems to a question regarding the wording of "marine" use and whether we fall into the category. I tend to agree with LS1 here, in as much as i can't see refineries/suppliers stocking two different gas oils. I'm guessing that come Jan, all gas oil will be sulphur free. That's my opinion.
Using sulphur free gas oil doesn't mean that we need to take any different action to that which we should be taking already. IE, keeping fuel clean and moisture free and having a decent filtration system.
Point two above is where the significant issue arises for marine users. Here is where i disagree with some of the assertions that are being made. For a start, there is no legal requirement for gas oil to contain biofuel from Jan 2010. It has been speculated that refineries/suppliers will not bother to have two separate fuels, there will be white road fuel for road use and white road fuel with an added red marker dye for all other uses (replacing gas oil). It's the possible addition of biofuel that pose the threat, note the use of the word possible though. The addition of biofuel is purely speculative and as far as i can see was introduced by the RYA statement. This speculative comment seems to have gained a life of it's own and is now being discussed as if it is a fact, including by LS1. There is no evidence to suggest biofuel will be added.
The addition of biofuel would present a number of potential and/or real problems. It may cause some seals and hoses to leak. It may cause problems with certain fuel pumps. It will degrade quicker (it's recommended that it not be stored for more than three months) and with moisture in the fuel it is reported to be promote bug growth. Initial use of biofuel will scour the decades of crud from the bottom of fuel tanks, leading to fuel contamination, filter blockages etc.
Now, given the above downsides to having a biofuel element, consider the user groups for gas oil :
Heating oil (some systems use gas oil rather than kerosene)
Plant and offroad machines, including a host of machines that might be out of use for months on end.
Boats, the majority of which will be out of commission for the Winter months and many will not be used much or frequently during the entire year.
Agricultural vehicles, again some of these will be out of use for long periods, combine harvesters for example.
The above groups must surely account for the biggest share of sulphar free gas oil use. All of them fall far short of the long term storage recommendations for fuels containing biofuel. All would be hard hit by the negative points of adding biofuel. For these reasons, i don't believe that the refineries/suppliers will be using dyed white road fuel, or any form of gas oil containing biofuel. But, that's my opinion again.
1) New legislation means a new sulphur free fuel will have to be used by certain groups from Jan 2010.
2) Rather than spend £££££'s blending and storing a new fuel (sulphur free gas oil), it has been suggested that refineries/suppliers might simply supply white road diesel, with an added red marker dye.
The above poses two separate and different sets of problems.
It may of course turn out that marinas based in coastal waters will carry on supplying gas oil as it is now. There seems to a question regarding the wording of "marine" use and whether we fall into the category. I tend to agree with LS1 here, in as much as i can't see refineries/suppliers stocking two different gas oils. I'm guessing that come Jan, all gas oil will be sulphur free. That's my opinion.
Using sulphur free gas oil doesn't mean that we need to take any different action to that which we should be taking already. IE, keeping fuel clean and moisture free and having a decent filtration system.
Point two above is where the significant issue arises for marine users. Here is where i disagree with some of the assertions that are being made. For a start, there is no legal requirement for gas oil to contain biofuel from Jan 2010. It has been speculated that refineries/suppliers will not bother to have two separate fuels, there will be white road fuel for road use and white road fuel with an added red marker dye for all other uses (replacing gas oil). It's the possible addition of biofuel that pose the threat, note the use of the word possible though. The addition of biofuel is purely speculative and as far as i can see was introduced by the RYA statement. This speculative comment seems to have gained a life of it's own and is now being discussed as if it is a fact, including by LS1. There is no evidence to suggest biofuel will be added.
The addition of biofuel would present a number of potential and/or real problems. It may cause some seals and hoses to leak. It may cause problems with certain fuel pumps. It will degrade quicker (it's recommended that it not be stored for more than three months) and with moisture in the fuel it is reported to be promote bug growth. Initial use of biofuel will scour the decades of crud from the bottom of fuel tanks, leading to fuel contamination, filter blockages etc.
Now, given the above downsides to having a biofuel element, consider the user groups for gas oil :
Heating oil (some systems use gas oil rather than kerosene)
Plant and offroad machines, including a host of machines that might be out of use for months on end.
Boats, the majority of which will be out of commission for the Winter months and many will not be used much or frequently during the entire year.
Agricultural vehicles, again some of these will be out of use for long periods, combine harvesters for example.
The above groups must surely account for the biggest share of sulphar free gas oil use. All of them fall far short of the long term storage recommendations for fuels containing biofuel. All would be hard hit by the negative points of adding biofuel. For these reasons, i don't believe that the refineries/suppliers will be using dyed white road fuel, or any form of gas oil containing biofuel. But, that's my opinion again.
David of Essex
Well-Known Member
Thankfully mjf started this thread and Latestarter has spent a lot of time giving us a wealth of of information on the coming changes to red fuel. Forewarned is forearmed, if people choose not to take on board what has been said that is up to them. From January 2011 changes will start to take place, how long before it becomes fully implemented only time will tell. When the changes are fully up and running some people, who have not taken the opportunity to make some basic improvements will suffer.
Thankfully this forum keeps coming ahead of the rest (MBM and RYA ).
David
Thankfully this forum keeps coming ahead of the rest (MBM and RYA ).
David
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
An excellent summary, in my view..... except that it should say 2011, not 2010 !!
So boat owners should not be rushing into any expensive modifications to their fuel systems in readiness for any bio fuel issues, until they know for sure that these will actually exist.
So boat owners should not be rushing into any expensive modifications to their fuel systems in readiness for any bio fuel issues, until they know for sure that these will actually exist.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Paul,
Nothing at all speculative here, I have been involved with the framing of this legislation since early this decade. Many changes are already in place. Proposals have been implemented by the HM Excise to sort out this potential distribution nightmare. There is to be a new process by which white road fuel is to be 'downgraded' by addition of red dye at the tanker. Whatever level of bio fuel is present in the road fuel you will get it by virtue of this process.
Do not compare properly installed engines in industrial equipment with boats. Smaller tankage and well designed filteration systems. Many boat builders standards are at best poor.
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
The introduction of biofuel to the groups i mentioned would cause serious issues. If you think that boat systems are bad, you obviously haven't seen the systems in UK agriculture and plant. Not to mention the heating systems, where fuel can easily sit around for a year or more.
BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
Ah, now I understand why you are so resistant to the notion that it probably wont happen.
No point in debating it any more, let's just wait and see.
Chris_d
Well-Known Member
I thought this already took place, Shepperton marina on the Thames sells low sulpher road diesel with a red dye in it, has done for many years.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
New fuel standard is not ULSD, 50 ppm this is different, we are talking 10 ppm, in the words of the directive virtually sulphur free. Come Jan1 2011 this stuff will not comply
omega2
Well-Known Member
Will this "new fuel" stop my 180 Sabres smoking?
Trundlebug
Well-Known Member
So what do you class as poor?
Primary and secondary filtration? Or is this exceptional by boat standards?
Just how many filters are required for it to be deemed well designed?
Some clarity would be appreciated, rather than just scaremongering.