Centaur / Berwick keels & regular drying out

[Valiant18]

I am considering moving up in size to a Westerly Centaur (or perhaps Berwick/Pentland) and keep my current drying mooring (soft mud) to save cost but am concerned that the constant drying out will cause damage to the keel/hull joint.

I have read on these forums that it is a relativley inexpensive job for a yard to strengthen the affected areas:

1) Does anyone have any idea how "inexpensive"; and
2) How effective is this likely to be over the long term?

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[paulrossall]

Have you tried asking this question on the Westerly site as you are bound to have people on that site who have strengthened keels? www.westerley-owners.co.uk

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[philip_stevens]

....and then subscribe to the discussion group.

<hr width=100% size=1>regards,
Philip

 

[Valiant18]

I have followed your suggestion. Whilst the Yahoo forum is far more difficult than ybw to navigate I have managed to find one thread that indicates that e.g. Centaurs have only 8mm GRP around the keels and another where the keels had been re-inforced by a yard and that on launch/settling into mud the strengthening had broken! To be fair I found it difficult to follow the thread to its conclusion due to technical ineptitude but maybe I should forget boats with non-encapsulated (i.e. bolted on) bilge keels for my mud mooring? Is this a reasonable conclusion?

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[paulrossall]

I did go on the Westerly site and I found it dirricult to work. This forum is without doubt the best designed and easiest to operate. Have you looked at Macwesters? they have almost vertical keels, so do not splay like Westerlies and I have never heard of a Macwester having keel problems. They are very very strongly built and are cheaper to buy than the equivalent Westerly. I have a Macwester 30 so I am biased. Look at www.macwester.org and look at the for sale section. The main models are Mac.26, 28 30 the Wight (30) and wight (32) and they go bigger. The Atlanta Rockall, Vicking 800 and 28 and viking28 where also Macwaster designs built by Atlanta. The Macwester Rowan22, 8 Metre and Crown are smaller Macwesters 22ft long,26'6" and 24ft respectively which all had long keels but many had bilge plates so they could stand up.
Good luck with your search.Paul

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[VicS]

This is a well known problem with Centaurs kept on drying moorings on mud. The whole keel is likely to pull out of the bottom of the boat as the tide rises. Insurance companies will wriggle out of claims if they can too, because you know about the problem.

The Berwick I have crewed for over 20yrs is kept on a drying mooring on solid ground and has suffered no problems but when we take it in to the yard for the winter and it has to be craned out of a muddy berth there have been times when the crane has been unable to pull it out of the mud until the tide has lifted it a bit.

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[seahorse]

Hi, I bought my Centaur 3 yrs ago, its 1979 model & despit staying in a drying harbour I have had no problems. There are 2 other Centaurs in the harbour which, like the other dozen Centaurs/BK Westerlys in drying harbours within 40 miles have also had no keel problems.

Perhaps the problem has been over emphisised.


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[jleaworthy]

I should be very careful of regularly drying out a boat with encapsulated ballast as opposed to bolt-on keels. There was a cautionary tale in one of the magazines a couple of years ago concerning a Macwester Rowan, the 24' Crown version I think, which the owner kept on a drying mooring thinking it would be OK because it was fitted with bilge plates to keep it upright. Unfortunately the bottom of the long keel was ground away over a period of time resulting in ballast falling out and the boat sinking. Apparently an insurance claim was refused because the damage was in their view predictable.

Personally I would always opt for bolted on keels in these circumstances but early Centaurs were notoriously fragile (anyone remember the one that sunk on Poole bar when one keel was hammered up through the hull?) although most must have been modified by now. Have a look at the Newbridge range eg 23' Voyager or 26' Pioneer, both very strongly moulded where it matters.

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[Valiant18]

Thanks guys - glad I asked! Not much chance of wearing away the grp in the mud - it really is almost liquid - I'll take a look at the MacWesters & Atlantas & Newbridge boats


<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by Valiant18 on 29/04/2003 18:46 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[oldharry]

Centaurs seemed particularly prone to keel splay problems, although its endemic to almost any splay keeled boat with bolted on ballast keels.

In soft mud the hydraulic pressure as the boat settles in on each tide puts a huge sideways pressure on the keels, which if they are not strongly enough attached will eventually loosen as the keel bolts stretch and flex.

The first symptom is that the gasket between the keel and the GRP moulding fails. This is easily identified by checking the joint when the hull has dried off. If the joint remains damp then the gasket has failed and there is water in the joint. Later on as the condition worsens, the keel bolts will be seen to be weeping inside. In severe cases the reinforcing webs may also be showing signs of stress - cracking or even breaking away from the hull mouldings.

Repair is very simply a matter of grinding away any damaged reinforcement, and replacing it with a heavier lay up. Except in extreme cases it is rarely necessary to remove the keels.

Prevention is better than cure, and tweaking the keel bolts should be part of the annual maintenance schedule on any splay keeled bilge keeler that is taking the ground regularly.

Encapsulated ballast keels should also be monitored with great care for abrasion. GRP is really very soft - think of the ease with which the dinghy can put a scar in the gel coat, then think of the keel bottoms graunching around on the seabed on every tide...! I would go so far as to say that a GRP encapsulated keel is unsuitable for a drying mooring unless well protected with metal.

A rather pretty H22 had boiler punchings as ballast, encapsulated in the keels. One of the keels split and started to dribble rust. Opening it up from inside, we found water had got in through abrasion, and the whole mass was a solid rusting lump which was expanding as the corrosion increased and had split the moulding. Removing it and cleaning out was another story!

But dont be put off the Centaurs and Berwicks - they are good solid boats with few other weaknesses or vices, and if the one you are looking at is suspect there are plenty more to look at.

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by oldharry on 30/04/2003 09:04 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

The problem stems from two factors :

a) The method of attachment and lack of real body to the area. This has often been corrected by adding rovings to the area to build up the support for the keel bolts etc. Use of penny washers replaced with larger wahsers / plates
b) The keels being splayed at an angle to the hull causes immense pressure when the 'mud' is forced up between into a reducing space - bit like compressing in an engine !! This forces the keel outwards. With staright keels it doesn't seem to so prevalent ... but splayed keels often display an offset to the one or other ... easily measured with a line to bow / stern from keel edge.

Many Westerlys have had work done on the keels without later owners knowing ....

Yes it is a point that may have been driven too hard, like many others. But also there are a lot of other boats very similar in style, cabin room etc. to the Westerly's and many are cheaper and not so prevalent to this problem .... Colvic 26's, Mirage 26, Snapdragon 26's etc. etc.

Centaur / Berwicks - good boats - I like 'em, but won't pay prices asked !!


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !

 

[Guest]

Colvic 26 is so close ....

It is literally apart from keels moulded as part of hull and the lack of step-down to coachroof ..... could literally be a sister !!

Price is about 3-4K less, little or no keel problems, strong hulls .... just watch out for poor Owner fitting out amd knackered Petter engines !!

But if you really want a Centaur - look at Colvic 26 before deciding ... it really is very close cousin !!

Newbridge etc. - less headroom, higher price etc.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
Bilge Keelers get up further ! I only came - cos they said there was FREE Guinness !