Cat C12 (2006) Heat Exchangers, to clean or replace?

[Phildorset]

What is the thinking here? These engines have done just 160hrs, but are 10yrs in the boat and I've read that it's as much about their years in the engine room as it is hours under load. But the Cat guys are saying that they give a service (or is that replacement?) time of around 3yrs for these! My surveyor says you can get them cleaned out using an acid or such, that would seem to be rather better than replacing at Cat part costs... have yet to receive Cat quote but expect it to be ££££s
Any advice or wise words gratefully received.
Phil.

 

[kashurst]

How much muck is inside them will depend on many factors so there could be very little gunge or they could be very bunged up. Do you have any over heating issues or performance problems? if not then there is probably not much in there. Still after 10 years probably worth having them stripped and cleaned. They really shouldn't need replacing.

 

[DrSpock]

CAT parts are horrendous to replace. A friend has two C12 ACERTs - we removed and cleaned the heat exchangers as part of a major overhaul at 1200 hours and reinstalled with no problems. They can be repaired if need be.

I'd also be wary of CAT engineers - some are clearly better than others. One diagnosed a surface film at the back of the boat as a fuel leak and went on about stripping the engine to check when I pointed out it was ATF from the steering hose...

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Well 3 yrs is not untypical. I have MAN engines and MAN recommend that the heat exchangers (and intercoolers) are removed for cleaning every 2 yrs which may be necessary in areas where high fouling is an issue but probably not in the UK. My clean is due this winter but I have told the local MAN technician to inspect the heat exchangers and intercoolers in situ on the engines and discuss their condition with me before, if necessary, removing them for cleaning. I am not convinced that this is necessary especially given the fact that there has been no perceptible rise in coolant or oil temperatures since they were last cleaned. In my case MAN are quoting €9000 for removing and cleaning the heat exchangers/intercoolers on my engines/gearboxes and thats a hell of a lot of money for something that may not be necessary

Yes it is possible to clean these parts in situ with a Rydlyme treatment but it is going to depend on how bad the fouling is. Certainly removal for cleaning is a much more thorough job. As for replacing the parts, that will only be necessary in the event that the heat exchangers have been so badly damaged by fouling that they can no longer perform correctly. Btw if servicing on these engines has been carried out by a Cat dealer they should have a record of when the heat exchangers were last removed and cleaned

 

[acbruce]

Wow, €9,000 is an extraordinary price to remove and clean two exchangers. What sort of labour rate does that imply? Or to think of it the other way it implies 2.5 full days labour on each at €200 per hour? Really?

 

[volvopaul]

Most of these manufacturers recommendations are centred around the cooler giving max performance, in the case of an aftercoler it's all about making the inlet air as dense as possible, I slight increase in temp and the HP will drop due to the higher inlet temp backing off the fuel.
If you don't charge around all day at WOT then I'd doubt you need to clean them every 2 years on a MAN , I'm working on a pair of 1550 V12s , they have 4 turbos and 2 stage interccoling to give the desired HP required, it's all about making the right choice with the right engineer balanced as to what you require.
As Mike F says he doubts they need removing and cleaning , the only issue with the CAC on the air inlet side is blockage of air due to oily deposits from a leaking turbo shaft, that's when you also loose power.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Wow, €9,000 is an extraordinary price to remove and clean two exchangers. What sort of labour rate does that imply? Or to think of it the other way it implies 2.5 full days labour on each at €200 per hour? Really?

Actually the figure is higher than that at €9964 but that includes VAT so the net amount is €8304. Of that labour accounts for €4160 (64hrs @ €65/hr) and the rest is parts and fluids. I guess that means 4 days for 2 blokes. Don't forget that on my engines there are the gearbox heat exchangers as well so thats 2 x heat exchangers + 1 x intercooler per side, 6 components to remove, clean and replace and then a documented seatrial afterwards. But yes €9964 is a ridiculous amount of money but the quote comes from a reputable MAN service centre (Y.E.S Antibes) and actually their quote for just servicing the engines is reasonable so I have no reason to believe they are trying to rip me off on the cleaning of the heat exchangers/intercoolers.

As I say I'm very reluctant to spend the money considering that the heat exchangers were removed and cleaned 2 yrs ago (although the intercooler wasn't removed because it was inspected and found to be in good order) which is why I want to see the components exposed in situ as far as it is possible before authorising the spend

If there are any experienced MAN technicians out there who think they can do the job cheaper then PM me!

(Apologies to the OP for drifting this thread away from Cat)

 

[DrSpock]

You don't need a MAN technician to do this - any competent marine engineer can remove and clean heat exchangers.

Personally I'd do it myself with help from a friend for lifting the buggers out.

 

[Mike k]

read this for technique you can do it yourself
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...lvo-D4-How&highlight=cleaning+heat+exchangers

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You don't need a MAN technician to do this - any competent marine engineer can remove and clean heat exchangers.

Yes but a competent marine technician is still going to charge €65/hr or close to that so unless he can do the job quicker there is no saving. Also with a MAN technician I get a warranty on his work. You can argue whether thats worth having or not but for me, saving say €500 on the total labour charge would not make it worthwile ignoring the warranty aspect

Btw can anyone explain what the technician does with the heat exchangers once they are removed from the engines? In other words how are they cleaned?

 

[BartW]

. In my case MAN are quoting €9000 for removing and cleaning the heat exchangers/intercoolers on my engines/gearboxes and thats a hell of a lot of money for something that may not be necessary

Mike, you might regret your move to SOF instead of Porto Montenegro when reading the following :

shortly after my first engine rebuild we had a strange and serious temp problem,
to be sure that the cooling cirquit was completely ok, nothing left in there (a rag fe) or whatever
they disassembled the complete water cooling cirquit and reinstalled everything again, including heat exchanger(s), waterpump, thermostats, etc...
it took 2 Guy's roughly 2 hours to open and reinstall (everything was perfectly OK and clean)
remember labour cost there is aprox 35..40euro/hour

FYI
I didn't have to pay this, as it was warranty on the total overhaul,
and the problem was a combination of: a small perforation in one of the cooling water hoses, and a intermittant faulty reading temp meter.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Personally I'd do it myself

You obviously don't know Deleted User...

 

[kashurst]

once the heat exchangers are off, you remove the end caps and seals and slide the tube stack out. Then its just cleaning the insides of all the tubes by rodding through (carefully) and/or chemically soaking in rydlyme or calgone to get rid of calcium and salt deposits. My experience of the calcium deposits is they tend to be all at one end and not very far (about 1") down inside the tubes.
The Charge air cooler tubes may need cleaning externally if they are coated in oil and gunge. either ultrasonically or chemically (Gunk and a stiff brush) remove the oil. Pop it all back together with new seals. On a small engine its quite straight forward. On a big engine like yours the parts are big and heavy so its slow work for one with some sort of lifting gear or two people who know what they are doing.

I'm trying to decide whether or not to do mine at the moment. 10 years old 1280 hours, no apparent heating/cooling symptoms. Thinking of selling the boat, would it help sell it if the work had already been done????

 

[Nick_H]

Yes but a competent marine technician is still going to charge €65/hr or close to that so unless he can do the job quicker there is no saving.

I get the impression that heat exchanger cleaning is one of those jobs where the manufacturer allows the franchised dealers to make higher margins, by putting generous standard times on it, maybe as an offset for assigning tighter times on other jobs. The VP standard for my D12's is something like 27 hours (can't remember exactly), but Volvopaul stripped and cleaned them in a fraction of the time.

 

[Phildorset]

Hmmm. Nobody so far has talked about replacing, so it's all about marine growth and crud build up in the little tubes & how best to remove it. I'm too new to big engines to think about tackling this myself, but it doesn't seem to be a franchised engine co type job... Can anyone recommend maybe an independent Cat experienced engineer that might like to do this in Poole? Volvopaul gets lots of great praise here - but the (your ) name suggests maybe prefering to stick to VP?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike, you might regret your move to SOF instead of Porto Montenegro when reading the following :

Always, Bart!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You obviously don't know Deleted User...

I've got a proposal for you Jimmy. You take off my heat exchangers and clean them while I watch and learn from the master

And do the engine servicing whilst you're down there

It might take me several such demonstrations before I catch on though

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Hmmm. Nobody so far has talked about replacing

Sorry again to have drifted your thread. Why do you think you need to replace them? They definitely don't need to be replaced every 3 yrs. The chances are very good that your heat exchangers will just need cleaning and if a Cat guy is telling you that your exchangers need replacing I'd want a second opinion

 

[Portofino]

Mine are more or less 1/2 of yours 13 L straight 6's and were done in summer 2014 by these guys ( Italian branch )
They have a branch in Vallauris
http://www.tonissi.fr/index.html
If you have not done so may be worth getting another quote .theres also the "robbers" on the marina front .
Sud Marine Diesel.. They too have a unit somewhere .reason I suggest em , althoght the Antibes shop is dear for understandable none trade discount punters ,French employment law , running a shop etc ,I see them about a lot in the marinas and Yards .They also were v helpful after a Internet buy of parts /oil they delivered it to the boat was in the yard and they were working on two others one a 2 y Old Pershing having new ram seals and other rubber replaced .
So along with YES you have a choise .
As to should I shouldn,t I have em done -- well I would listen to Volvo Paul and basically keep an eye on the temp s
Last week we ran @ 84 @ 1850 rpm ,but in peak summer I have seen 86
These numbers have not changed in the 2 Y I've had it .
I have in the back of my mind thought about a strip down / clean etc ---sometime over the horizon .
Looking @ the set up the intake pipes and straners etc are all massive compared to my previous kad 300 -like a D4 or D6 .
I not convinced there's an easy way to rig up a rydlime pump system as in the link above .
May be the little gearbox cooler could be pickled in situ ,but the main stacks not so sure .-- looking more like an agents job .
With the help of a mate I have fully serviced them 2x using MAN parts /oil from Sud Marine Diesel bill was € 550 inc tax
Remember we have 1/2 the parts ie only one oil filter and air filter / side + 2 fuel filters

Labour rates at Arie d Boom my local yard are same as your quote €65 /h + tax
I had them replace all the black rubber pipe work ,main seacocks , and gearbox hoses .

Back to cooler strip ---if its asymptomatic -running 84-86 - I would defer it and revisit the issue in 12/12

 

[Phildorset]

Very nice Cat engineer filled me full of fear of certain catastrophe if these were too far gone... along the lines of 'sitting there in salty water', the engines are in good order, low hours, nice dry engine room, etc etc... I'm starting to feel that I've been sowed this seed of concern and it's been growing out of control... Can I reasonably just use the running temps as the best guide as to whether they're starting to stifle the cooling and need attention?