Cardiff Bay Yacht Club Fined £40,000 and £14,400 costs!

[dogleg]

[QUOTE=Elessar;4781383]A puny engine is no good for training or a rescue boat. And they are not going to swap engines. A 25 would be too fast anyway at night if flat out.

Far better a decent engine and decent training/supervision.

The twin 400 RiB was huge fun. Could overtake the redjet like it was standing still. But it did need enormous respect. The new owner, who was very capable, was wise enough to buy 5 days training.

He wanted it as a mile eater. And it could do that with ease. A comfortable 35-40 knot cruise with hardly a ripple of wake.[/QUOTE]

apologies if this has already been highlighted but according to a MCA press release of today the accident was not reported by the organisers to any authority and only became known to the regulatory bodies when the parents of the badly injured girl contacted the Cardiff Marine Office one year later.

The failure to report this incident by the organisers is surely itself utterly and totally irresponsible.

 

[Gaffer101]

[/QUOTE]
[/I]
apologies if this has already been highlighted but according to a MCA press release of today the accident was not reported by the organisers to any authority and only became known to the regulatory bodies when the parents of the badly injured girl contacted the Cardiff Marine Office one year later.

The failure to report this incident by the organisers is surely itself utterly and totally irresponsible.[/QUOTE]

from the MAIB report
REPORTING THE ACCIDENT
The RYA became aware of the accident on the morning of 28 October, and later that
day received an interim report from CBYC’s chief instructor. A more comprehensive
report was prepared by members of CBYC and sent to the RYA on 24 November
2010. The accident was reported to MAIB on 25 November 2010, and to the
harbourmaster on 14 December 2010.

Harbour master report is here

www.cardiffharbour.com/objview.asp?Object_ID=72

 

[JumbleDuck]

The failure to report this incident by the organisers is surely itself utterly and totally irresponsible.

It may have been responsible, but I don't think it was illegal. From http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/reportable-incidents.htm

Non fatal accidents to non-workers (eg members of the public)

Accidents to members of the public or others who are not at work must be reported if they result in an injury and the person is taken directly from the scene of the accident to hospital for treatment to that injury.​

None of the victims was taken directly to hospital, and the three significant injuries only showed up a few days later. Of course that raises the question of whether any of them should have been taken to hospital at once, but from the MAIB report it seems that the house mothers did a pretty good job in looking after the girls at the time and had no reason to believe that anything was seriously wrong with them

 

[Capt Popeye]

[QUOTE=Elessar;4781383]A puny engine is no good for training or a rescue boat. And they are not going to swap engines. A 25 would be too fast anyway at night if flat out.

Far better a decent engine and decent training/supervision.

The twin 400 RiB was huge fun. Could overtake the redjet like it was standing still. But it did need enormous respect. The new owner, who was very capable, was wise enough to buy 5 days training.

He wanted it as a mile eater. And it could do that with ease. A comfortable 35-40 knot cruise with hardly a ripple of wake.

apologies if this has already been highlighted but according to a MCA press release of today the accident was not reported by the organisers to any authority and only became known to the regulatory bodies when the parents of the badly injured girl contacted the Cardiff Marine Office one year later.

The failure to report this incident by the organisers is surely itself utterly and totally irresponsible.[/QUOTE]

Thank you dogleg for this info; makes one wonder what does go on in some YC these days

 

[Capt Popeye]

It may have been responsible, but I don't think it was illegal. From http://www.hse.gov.uk/riddor/reportable-incidents.htm

Non fatal accidents to non-workers (eg members of the public)

Accidents to members of the public or others who are not at work must be reported if they result in an injury and the person is taken directly from the scene of the accident to hospital for treatment to that injury.​

None of the victims was taken directly to hospital, and the three significant injuries only showed up a few days later. Of course that raises the question of whether any of them should have been taken to hospital at once, but from the MAIB report it seems that the house mothers did a pretty good job in looking after the girls at the time and had no reason to believe that anything was seriously wrong with them

So house mothers are medically trained then? up to paramedic standard then?

Concussion etc should be treated /observed under all circumstances, and who better to decide if injury has taken place than, you might guess it, A&E; so a visit to A&E is the best option, urg

 

[JumbleDuck]

So house mothers are medically trained then? up to paramedic standard then?

1.3.5 Post-accident care

When the girls arrived back at the hostel they were accompanied by the house
mother who had been on one of the RIBs involved in the collision. This house
mother was medically trained, and she ensured that the girls who had been in the
water took hot showers and were given warm drinks.

The other two house mothers, who had travelled by car, then arrived at the hostel.
One of these was the event organiser, who was also medically trained; she
immediately re-checked the condition of all the girls who had been involved in the
collision, particularly those who had been in the water.

Once she had assured herself that none of the girls appeared to require medical
attention, she telephoned their parents to inform them in general terms of the
accident. She also checked the condition of the girls again before going to bed, and
they all appeared to be well.​

Concussion etc should be treated /observed under all circumstances, and who better to decide if injury has taken place than, you might guess it, A&E; so a visit to A&E is the best option, urg

With hindsight, yes, but I think their actions at the time were reasonable. It would be interesting to know what their level of medical training was.

 

[JumbleDuck]

apologies if this has already been highlighted but according to a MCA press release of today the accident was not reported by the organisers to any authority and only became known to the regulatory bodies when the parents of the badly injured girl contacted the Cardiff Marine Office one year later.

That directly contradicts the MAIB report

SYNOPSIS

On 27 October 2010, two Rigid Inflatable Boats (RIBs) belonging to the
Cardiff Bay Yacht Club (CBYC) collided while transporting a number
of children across Cardiff Bay. As a result of the impact three children
were thrown into the water, while others suffered abrasions and
muscular injuries.

[...]

1.10 REPORTING THE ACCIDENT

The RYA became aware of the accident on the morning of 28 October, and later that
day received an interim report from CBYC’s chief instructor. A more comprehensive
report was prepared by members of CBYC and sent to the RYA on 24 November
2010. The accident was reported to MAIB on 25 November 2010, and to the
harbourmaster on 14 December 2010.​

 

[Capt Popeye]

1.3.5 Post-accident care

When the girls arrived back at the hostel they were accompanied by the house
mother who had been on one of the RIBs involved in the collision. This house
mother was medically trained, and she ensured that the girls who had been in the
water took hot showers and were given warm drinks.

The other two house mothers, who had travelled by car, then arrived at the hostel.
One of these was the event organiser, who was also medically trained; she
immediately re-checked the condition of all the girls who had been involved in the
collision, particularly those who had been in the water.

Once she had assured herself that none of the girls appeared to require medical
attention, she telephoned their parents to inform them in general terms of the
accident. She also checked the condition of the girls again before going to bed, and
they all appeared to be well.​

With hindsight, yes, but I think their actions at the time were reasonable. It would be interesting to know what their level of medical training was.

Just my opinion from attending a few accidents, but if the victim is not progressed to A&E or an Ambulance straight from the scene, and complications develop later on, the persons so neglecting to call the Emergency services can be held to of been negligent. So, best err on the safe side and show that you have done all that is reasonable.

 

[Capt Popeye]

The ybw.com Newsletter is featuring this incident, might be just me, but some of the reporting seems at odds with information posted on here.

 

[Gaffer101]

Just my opinion from attending a few accidents, but if the victim is not progressed to A&E or an Ambulance straight from the scene, and complications develop later on, the persons so neglecting to call the Emergency services can be held to of been negligent. So, best err on the safe side and show that you have done all that is reasonable.

Although presumably not in this case as there was no prosecution of the house mums and this did happen nearly 4 years ago.
We don't want scare volunteers off by trial by Internet...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just my opinion from attending a few accidents, but if the victim is not progressed to A&E or an Ambulance straight from the scene, and complications develop later on, the persons so neglecting to call the Emergency services can be held to of been negligent. So, best err on the safe side and show that you have done all that is reasonable.

Perhaps. In this case, though, none of the hurt girls started showing any symptoms for three days. I would be interesting to know if there was anything evident at the time which two medically trained housemothers failed to spot ... would A&E have been happy to receive two boatloads of people, none of whom were at the time feeling unwell?

 

[Capt Popeye]

Perhaps. In this case, though, none of the hurt girls started showing any symptoms for three days. I would be interesting to know if there was anything evident at the time which two medically trained housemothers failed to spot ... would A&E have been happy to receive two boatloads of people, none of whom were at the time feeling unwell?

Hi JDck, well the whole point of a check over by A&E or Ambulance is that the responsibility transfers to these proffesionals, they have equipment, training, responsibility etc to judge delayed results of accidents, they have History to examine, and they can give a state of play condition acceptable to lawyers etc. The welfare of the victims is Paramount in these incidents, indeed if a coach is involved in an accident on our roads all the victims are transfered to A&E for assessment. I would say that those participating in water sports deserve similar treatment

 

[Capt Popeye]

Although presumably not in this case as there was no prosecution of the house mums and this did happen nearly 4 years ago.
We don't want scare volunteers off by trial by Internet...

Hate to say it, but this case is probably not yet over, judging by the report in ybw newsletter.

Regarding the use of well meaning volunteers for such events, I would strongly suggest that participants in such activities deserve the best protection available, reducing any likely hood of injury or accident, and that volunteers should meet very stringent oversight to ensure that the best is available, if it means employing professionals, then so be it. In no way should we expect volunteers to be in a position of responsibility that they are not qualified so to do.

 

[DarkKnight]

One house mother was a GP and the other a hospital consultant

 

[Gaffer101]

Hate to say it, but this case is probably not yet over, judging by the report in ybw newsletter.

Regarding the use of well meaning volunteers for such events, I would strongly suggest that participants in such activities deserve the best protection available, reducing any likely hood of injury or accident, and that volunteers should meet very stringent oversight to ensure that the best is available, if it means employing professionals, then so be it. In no way should we expect volunteers to be in a position of responsibility that they are not qualified so to do.

4 years later - 4 reports written
2 court cases - one prosecution - one unconditional discharge
God knows how much it has all cost (probably a lot more the £14,400 - you don't get may lawyers for that)
The yacht club says it has taken on board the recommendations years ago.
It should be over surely


As for "well meaning volunteers", a rather patronizing turn of phrase, without these generous people then a lot of the activities sailing clubs and other groups provide would simply not happen. That would be a sad day.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Hi JDck, well the whole point of a check over by A&E or Ambulance is that the responsibility transfers to these proffesionals, they have equipment, training, responsibility etc to judge delayed results of accidents, they have History to examine, and they can give a state of play condition acceptable to lawyers etc. The welfare of the victims is Paramount in these incidents, indeed if a coach is involved in an accident on our roads all the victims are transfered to A&E for assessment. I would say that those participating in water sports deserve similar treatment

I am not convinced that it is a sensible use of resources to send lare numbers of people who are not injured, or who do not appear to be injured, to A&E just on the offchance. The staff there probably have better things to do.

Regarding the use of well meaning volunteers for such events, I would strongly suggest that participants in such activities deserve the best protection available ...

Paying people doesn't make them better qualified. In fact, paying people in this case would almost certainly have got less qualfied staff as house mothers. How much does it cost to hire two doctors for a week?

As for "well meaning volunteers", a rather patronizing turn of phrase, without these generous people then a lot of the activities sailing clubs and other groups provide would simply not happen. That would be a sad day.

Absolutely. I have not seen anything which criticises the cares given after the accident.

 

[Elessar]

I am not convinced that it is a sensible use of resources to send lare numbers of people who are not injured, or who do not appear to be injured, to A&E just on the offchance. The staff there probably have better things to do.



Paying people doesn't make them better qualified. In fact, paying people in this case would almost certainly have got less qualfied staff as house mothers. How much does it cost to hire two doctors for a week?



Absolutely. I have not seen anything which criticises the cares given after the accident.

Totally agree. Lots of things to criticise, but the decision not to go the a-e doesn't appear to be one of them.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Totally agree. Lots of things to criticise, but the decision not to go the a-e doesn't appear to be one of them.

In fact, they appear to have behaved well after the accident, with good care, an immediate report to the RYA and further reports to MAIB and the LA when it became apparent that there had been serious injuries. If my child had been involved I would be mightily displeased that the accident ever took place but very happy with the club's behaviour afterwards.

 

[awol]

Just my opinion from attending a few accidents, but if the victim is not progressed to A&E or an Ambulance straight from the scene, .................

I think the word you are looking for is "casualty" rather than "victim" and the claim that good Samaritans can be found guilty of negligence is interesting.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I think the word you are looking for is "casualty" rather than "victim" and the claim that good Samaritans can be found guilty of negligence is interesting.

Quite. If you find somebody collapsed in the street it's probably best to step over them and carry on. No point making yourself vulnerable to litigation. Best not call an ambulance either. Walk on by.