Carbon fibre masts, rig and sails

[RRogers]

Hi everyone, newbie here.
I've tried the search function but can't find the answers...
I'm about to start a home build plywood yacht, a stretched Selway Fisher White Swan of 22 ft. As I'm building for the fun of it and to build the boat that I want, it will have the features I want.

The design calls for a gaff rig. I'm not against it although unfamiliar with sailing them (PBO has run a recent article which helps). But I see Swallow boats are using fathead mainsails with a low Bermudan CF mast. and their Baycruiser 23 is very similar to the White Swan.
Either way, there are also gaffers with CF masts and spars and to my mind, reducing weight above has got to be a good thing.

My question is - who makes these things? What I would like is a complete package, a la, the Baycruiser 23 or Crabber 24. I don't want to start putting everything together myself, laying up a CF mast etc!
The boats mentioned above are similar (or have similar sized boats in their ranges) and presumably source a third party for their rigs. If so, then it would be a good starting point to ask them.
I did enquire from one boatbuilder who they used but they were reluctant to say. Perhaps it was a bit cheeky to ask, although my one off build isn't in competition with them.
Any ideas? Do I go via sailmakers instead of mastmakers or boatbuilders.
Thanks for any help

 

[Neeves]

Sorry, but I cannot help, as you are unlikely to buy a CF mast in Australia (where I can almost see their production facility - slight exaggeration)

In there absence of replies - I thought I'd freshen your post up - in the hope someone will come along later.

But welcome to the forum.

Jonathan

 

[ridgy]

Ask performancerigging.co.uk
They will sort you out but it won't be cheap given that a carbon rig for a phantom dinghy is getting on for 2k.

I would also get a quote in aluminum from zpars...

 

[DownWest]

Make it out of oregon pine in the birdsmouth tecnique. Quite easy and perhaps more in keeping with the boat? You can put strands of carbon tape in the joints if it helps...

Not sure about carbon spars for gaff. Stuff is a bit fragile. And, a bit of weight aloft is not a bad thing from the roll damping aspect.

The main mast on my little ply build is 23ft long and unstayed, just about to start it . All the spars on my current boat are birdsmouth. It is light and strong and quite satisfying to make.
Have a look at the Duckworks site. Articles on BM and DIY carbon masts, worth a read.

 

[Daydream believer]

Whilst I could understand some good points in having a CF gaff I would not be so happy about a CF mast where the gaff rubbed against it. I do not think Carbon spars like abrasion that much. However, that being said , perhaps the manufacturers have a way of protecting the carbon at each reef level that the jaws of the gaff rub to the mast. I would also wonder about damage to the gaff if it came down a bit quick & hit the deck a bit hard. I know that my Phantom mast & my sailboard masts have to be carefully protected from impact damage. Of course they are thinner but also lighter than a gaff.
. G Eeles at Brightlingsea will make one off spinnaker poles etc and do manufacture carbon components for Spirit yachts. Not sure if they would make a mast though. I assume you only want a round pole with some fittings for the rigging & a set of jaws for the gaff, so they would be able to make that OK. Still you can always ask .
If one tries Google there are a range of mast makers one can try

 

[ip485]

Having worked with carbon a bit, the obvious point to make is on such a small yacht this would make an exceptionally light rig. The point abou t rubbing is a good one. This section could perhaps reenforced with carbon kevlar cloth or an aluminium collar which would provide better abrasion resistance. It should be relatively straight forward and will look lovely, if not entirely traditional.

 

[anoccasionalyachtsman]

You could approach Swallow thinking that since the masts probably have the maker's name on them you could also go direct if they say no. The problem is that they probably invested money and time in the development and the supplier would be wrong to sell direct to you.

They've probably got a healthy trade discount on their parts, so if the rig is close enough to your ideal I'd consider asking them if you could buy the entire rig set including all rigging and sails. They'll rightly want a profit out of it, and you can point out that it may be a slight hassle for them, but their volume discount with suppliers could also be enhanced. I used to be in yachtbuilding and we've have done it if we liked you. (Bear in mind that we were usually committed to buying in batches of ten (to meet a discount structure) so you might have a while to wait until the next batch, which might be a problem if you want to make your design fit it).

 

[Daydream believer]

Having worked with carbon a bit, the obvious point to make is on such a small yacht this would make an exceptionally light rig. The point abou t rubbing is a good one. This section could perhaps reenforced with carbon kevlar cloth or an aluminium collar which would provide better abrasion resistance. It should be relatively straight forward and will look lovely, if not entirely traditional.

the problem with a rubbing collar is that when reefed the collar would be in the wrong place, so several collars would be needed. That may make a construction problem or an aesthetic one, as well as meaning that reefs had to always be in the same place. Ok on a bermudian rig but is that the same on a gaff rig? The beads ( if used ) to retain the luff ( forget the term so gaffers will jump in here!!) may rub all the way up the mast anyway

 

[RRogers]

Thanks for the advice.
I'm looking for the easiest solution if possible but happy to go a bit "modern" too. There are gaffers around that use tracks just like Bermudan rigs, so rubbing shouldn't be an issue. Perhaps too high tech for some but I really am interested in minimum weight on top. So will be synthetic rigging too, like Dyneema.
Although the White Swan is vintage looking, the hull form isn't and the weight in fibreglass/plywood should be less than the Baycruiser 23, so expecting decent performance.
I think I'll have to try some of these companies such as Swallow and Crabbers and hope they're feeling sympathetic. I prefer that as mentioned, they have similar designed rigs already and it would be a big help in the build, if I already know where to put chainplates, mast compression posts etc.
Certainly easier than the "bitza" route of mast, gaff, sails etc from sundry suppliers.

 

[HughClayton]

The new Cornish Crabber 24’s all have carbon masts and some of the Crabber 26’s, including mine, have carbon masts. All gaffers.
The topside weightsaving makes a big difference.

The gaff jaws are lined with a rubber compound (a synthetic leather material) and some people also use stick-on PTFE at the points where the gaff sits when the sail’s up or reefed. I’ve been looking carefully for wear and all is well so far.

Selden supply carbon fibre spars.

Good luck with the project

 

[ip485]

the problem with a rubbing collar is that when reefed the collar would be in the wrong place, so several collars would be needed. That may make a construction problem or an aesthetic one, as well as meaning that reefs had to always be in the same place. Ok on a bermudian rig but is that the same on a gaff rig? The beads ( if used ) to retain the luff ( forget the term so gaffers will jump in here!!) may rub all the way up the mast anyway

Yes, a very good point.

Aesthetically I like carbon kevlar tweal, but not everyone may. I am also not familiar enough with this type of rig to know how many collars might be needed.

Carbon does seem to deal with abrasion quite well, but when the protective coating is worn away it looks tatty.

How do carbon masts stand up to the weather these days? I have a very large carbon pole on my boat which is a truly beatiful piece of workmanship, but I reckon it must be coated with two pack varnish every five years to retain its good looks! Ordinary varnish is hopeless, but two pack is very effective.

 

[DownWest]

Bit of reading...not the one you have chosen, but not dissimilar: Building a cape henry 21 gaff cutter. - Page 4