Canals closing in Scotland

[Deleted member 36384]

Is there any real justification for subsidising canals?

There is a need for outdoor leisure area amenities in Scotland, better infrastructure to service the demand in certain areas. An old, drained canal's tow path can still make a nice walkway, cycle path without the expense of a working waterway. On the other hand, Scotland's economy has a high degree of dependency on tourism, so working canals could be a feature of that. But not at any cost.

 

[awol]

Is there any real justification for subsidising canals?

Depends on your point of view. One man's common weal is another's waste of money. From opera, through motorways, the arts, historic buildings to bus passes, just to name a few, activities are subsidised and so why not the canals?

 

[lw395]

Without commercial traffic, they are unlikely to make a profit; I did a long canal journey from the Humber to Yorkshire when I was a boy (early 60s, before the upsurge in canal renovation), and it was evident that the stretches that still carried commercial traffic were in much better order than those that didn't. However, letting them deteriorate is not a good option, either - flooding, environmental degradation and all the rest are likely outcomes. Subsidizing them is probably cheaper than having to make them safe by filling them in and demolishing bridges etc.

AIUI, the canals in Scotland were big recipients of Millenium lottery money?
It's typical of grant-funded project to shower cash on big capital schemes with no thought about where the maintenance costs are going to come from. Aren't some of these canal merely sliding back to where they were in 1999?

 

[Slipstream 34]

Economy of scales. When it was British Waterways the pool of cash and manpower was far greater. We are reaping the benefits of another SG vanity project.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Without commercial traffic, they are unlikely to make a profit; I did a long canal journey from the Humber to Yorkshire when I was a boy (early 60s, before the upsurge in canal renovation), and it was evident that the stretches that still carried commercial traffic were in much better order than those that didn't. However, letting them deteriorate is not a good option, either - flooding, environmental degradation and all the rest are likely outcomes. Subsidizing them is probably cheaper than having to make them safe by filling them in and demolishing bridges etc.

As an addendum, the Caledonian Canal is still an important commercial link; we followed two coastal fishing vessels through it, and it is clear that without the canal, they would have had to stay where they were; no way were they going to go round Cape Wrath and the Pentland Firth! The commercial case for the F&C (because of low bridge limitations) and the Crinan Canal (because of cost!) is not so clear.

 

[JumbleDuck]

You wonder why they bothered with the new carron cut and sea lock complete with mast crane if being able to transit isn't important.

The trouble with that is that, having done a pathetic half-arsed job of linking to the Carron/Forth at re-opening, they didn't really improve the situation when they were footering about with Kelpies. Here is what it should look like:

and here's what they did:

The original canal dock at Grangemouth is built over, but if reestablishing that wasn't possible a lock into the Old Dock could have given all-tide access to the canal.

II'd regard the F&C as much more difficult, and chose not to go that way for several reasons, most of which have already been mentioned:

• Depth
• Mast stepping and unstepping
• Not mentioned is that the canal runs through some pretty rough areas

Agreed on all counts. I haven't been through myself, but people I know with an identical boat had some difficulty getting the 1.4m they/I need. Lots of faffing to raise levels. Mast transport ought to be provided. It would cost, but the F&C charges are ludicrously low anyway, and I would happily pay a hundred quid to have someone unstep my mast, take it by HIAB to Bowling and re-step it there.

Even the 1934 CCC book warns against leaving yachts unattended in Maryhill ...

Is there any real justification for subsidising canals?

For navigation: no, none at all. There are lots of good reasons for maintaining canals - wildlife corridors, cycle paths, relaxation, drainage - but leisure navigation isn't one of them.

AIUI, the canals in Scotland were big recipients of Millenium lottery money?
It's typical of grant-funded project to shower cash on big capital schemes with no thought about where the maintenance costs are going to come from. Aren't some of these canal merely sliding back to where they were in 1999?

The Lowland canals closed because, basically, nobody wanted to use them. Injecting lottery money did nothing to change that, and re-opening them as barely passable for navigation was the worst of all worlds; it cost a bomb, left a lot of expensive stuff to maintain and generated negligible traffic.

 

[awol]

You're out of date, Duck - an extension of the canal, still into the Carron but exiting beyond the motorway and Kerse Road bridges was built and opened in 2015 complete with a mast crane ...... and anyway Grangemouth docks are not "all tide".
F & C charges are no longer low. If you could actually transit then the price has risen to £15.50 per metre though they allow 10 days to dig your way through.

 

[moomba]

The Lowland canals closed because, basically, nobody wanted to use them. Injecting lottery money did nothing to change that, and re-opening them as barely passable for navigation was the worst of all worlds; it cost a bomb, left a lot of expensive stuff to maintain and generated negligible traffic.[/QUOTE]


This is nonsense the canal system running from Glasgow to the Falkirk wheel hosts a Hugh amount of small bushiness and restaurants along the canal path, there is a vast number of cyclists and dog walkers , fishing people , as well as charity boats out of Kirkintilloch that take a vast number of people who have never been on the water , not ot mention the tourists that flock to the falkirk wheel and those using marinas along the canal for their homes,now this would never have been possible without that cash injection, and I know as a lad I used to fish on the canal and use my air gun from Falkirk to Maryhill , and I have seen an amazing change to the canal, and still use it today, took my little one on her first kayak ride , couldn't do that 20 years ago unless you wanted to go shopping. yes it not suitable for sailing vessels unless de masted but canals are not just for boats.
I do not believe that the crinan nor the Caledonian has any cash issues , because of the traffic , but all that money needs to be invested equally amongst the estates.

 

[Quandary]

I do not believe that the crinan nor the Caledonian has any cash issues , because of the traffic , but all that money needs to be invested equally amongst the estates.

Have you seen them?
BW had a programme of replacing the old wooden gates on the Crinan with steel ones, the wooden gates they did not replace are still there, timber is completely rotten with plywood patches over some of the holes but they will not last much longer. When they collapse the Canal will be gone. The Crinan is a scheduled ancient monument and this is one of the excuses trotted out for ceasing to maintain it. Currently £1.5million is being spent on a 'Gateway' project behind the canal office in Ardrishaig, that might have been enough to carry out quite a bit of basic maintenance, I am convinced that a maintenance programme would be cheaper than the current policy of responding to failures particularly as it seems only matter of time until one of these failures results in a massive claim for death or serious injury but I suppose that is covered by insurance?
The current charge for a transit is around £100 for the average yacht but the revenue raised does not meet operating costs, particularly when like this year they redirect their traffic around the Mull; canoes, cyclists, walkers and the dozens of camper vans contribute nothing. There is some revenue from timber export from Ardrishaig pier but ships are not frequent, usually only the one shuttling to Ireland. For us locals when it closes we will have lost our only attraction.

 

[moomba]

https://www.scottishcanals.co.uk/co...sh-Canals-Annual-Report-Accounts-2017-18-.pdf

An interesting read , but what they say and what is happening could have slightly different views

 

[seaangler23]

Clyde to forth I could understand as it’s low traffic but Crinan and Caledonian would be a worry if they shut, I use the crinan at least once a year as sometimes there’s too little or too much wind round the mull to make it bearable

 

[JumbleDuck]

You're out of date, Duck - an extension of the canal, still into the Carron but exiting beyond the motorway and Kerse Road bridges was built and opened in 2015 complete with a mast crane ......

That would be the one clearly shown in the second map I posted, would it? With the "Lock" just under the "C" of "Carron"?

...... and anyway Grangemouth docks are not "all tide".

Sorry, I thought the locks operated 24/7.

F & C charges are no longer low. If you could actually transit then the price has risen to £15.50 per metre though they allow 10 days to dig your way through.

Considering that you get the exclusive attention of a team to get you through, that still seems quite cheap.

 

[JumbleDuck]

This is nonsense the canal system running from Glasgow to the Falkirk wheel hosts a Hugh amount of small bushiness and restaurants along the canal path, there is a vast number of cyclists and dog walkers , fishing people , as well as charity boats out of Kirkintilloch that take a vast number of people who have never been on the water , not ot mention the tourists that flock to the falkirk wheel and those using marinas along the canal for their homes,now this would never have been possible without that cash injection, and I know as a lad I used to fish on the canal and use my air gun from Falkirk to Maryhill , and I have seen an amazing change to the canal, and still use it today, took my little one on her first kayak ride , couldn't do that 20 years ago unless you wanted to go shopping. yes it not suitable for sailing vessels unless de masted but canals are not just for boats.

Yes, that's what I said. Lots of reasons for having the canal, but no good reasons for keeping it open to navigation. The Falkirk Wheel is an indulgent money pit, and there were short trips running from Kirkintilloch long before reopening. Your small businesses, restaurants,cyclists and dog walkers don't need it to be navigable and the fishing people would prefer that it wasn't.

 

[MM5AHO]

I predict that the Crinan will be the next one to close, now that the F&C doesn't work any more, and that it will be about 2020 when it grinds to a halt.
I've been through twice this year (but 6 times round the Mull), and do not enjoy it at all any longer. I see all that waste and mismanagement that Quandry has described each time, so I avoid it. It takes increasingly longer each year to get through.

I hesitate to predict a closing date for the Caledonian. Who will make a guess?

 

[Daydream believer]

deleted

 

[Thistle]

Not mentioned is that the canal runs through some pretty rough areas, and having stones thrown at yachts is not unknown. You certainly wouldn't want to stop for the night in some places (especially not with an English accent!)

Aye! When we tried to go through not long after the canal was re-opened we were advised to get past Maryhill before 1400 as that was when the neds tended to get up. That said, the Maryhill section of the canal remains one of the few places where I've ever seen a kingfisher.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I predict that the Crinan will be the next one to close, now that the F&C doesn't work any more, and that it will be about 2020 when it grinds to a halt.
I've been through twice this year (but 6 times round the Mull), and do not enjoy it at all any longer. I see all that waste and mismanagement that Quandry has described each time, so I avoid it. It takes increasingly longer each year to get through.

Looks about right. One of the current problems will go catastrophic - my money is on a gate failing and bringing down a significant chunk of lock wall when it goes - and with no money to repair there will be a temporary closure which lasts and last and lasts.

I've only recently started using the excellent services of Hugh and Quandary, but like you I just don't enjoy it any more.

 

[awol]

That would be the one clearly shown in the second map I posted, would it? With the "Lock" just under the "C" of "Carron"?

Sorry, I thought the locks operated 24/7.

Considering that you get the exclusive attention of a team to get you through, that still seems quite cheap.

I have no idea what I was thinking! Yes, the new cut is there; the channel to G'mouth docks is dredged to 6m and the gates operate 24/7. I think it was a case of fingers operating before brain was in gear - I can't even blame the demon drink! My apologies.
The charges did rise dramatically a couple of years ago - it used to be circa £5 per metre which was ridiculous for 3 men and a vehicle for the better part of two days.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Now that we all appear to be agreeing that the canals are too expensive to maintain based on the current usage, who would support a campaign to fix them? I would not because the authority had a plan and failed to deliver on that, so no point, a lost cause.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I have no idea what I was thinking! Yes, the new cut is there; the channel to G'mouth docks is dredged to 6m and the gates operate 24/7. I think it was a case of fingers operating before brain was in gear - I can't even blame the demon drink! My apologies.

Not at all. I should have been clearer about my choice of map.

The charges did rise dramatically a couple of years ago - it used to be circa £5 per metre which was ridiculous for 3 men and a vehicle for the better part of two days.

Yes, that's the one I remembered. Stupidly low.