Can a refit be financially worth it?

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I guess some of you might have read the report in this month's MBY on the refit of a 15yr old Tecnomar 82. For anyone who didn't, it was about a guy who bought a 15yr old Tecnomar 82 in Italy for a knockdown price, brought it back to the UK and had it refitted at a total cost of £1.5m including the cost of the boat itself and the transport back to the UK

I must admit that when reading about major refits, I tend to always think what a great thing to do but the owner will never get any of his money back when he sells it but then I started to think a bit more about it. Say this guy had spent that £1.5m on a 5yr old 82 footer. When he came to resell it in 5-7yrs time, the current market would result in him losing say £0.5m in depreciation, maybe more. So maybe it does make sense to buy that 15yr old 82 footer for say £400k and providing you spend less than £0.5m on a refit, you've saved money plus you get a boat that is exactly as you like it. The owner of the Tecnomar in the MBY article spent a lot more than £0.5m but most of that seemed to have been on a highly dubious marmite '70s interior which seemed purpose designed to make it hard to resell the boat

Then I got to thinking that if you decided to buy a boat and refit it, which refit jobs would add to the value of the boat and which wouldn't? I'm guessing that spending a few bob on upgrading the nav gear to state of the art equipment would definitely add to the value of the boat and I assume that replacing/reconditioning the engines and genny would do too. But would refurbing the interior and fitting new teak decks increase the value of the boat or just make it easier to resell (providing you don't choose a '70s interior design!)?

Any thoughts?
 
The trouble with refits is that there's the important stuff to do and then there's the nice to haves.
In my experience the nice to haves is often where the money really kicks in.

Classic is I want a new loo.
The old pump Jabso for £80 sir?
No I want electric,
Ah that'll be £300 for a Jabsco that stops working after a season
or £600 for a Planus,
Oh you have two heads then that'll be £1200 plus fitting plus new pipes, valves and so it goes on and on............
 
I have spent the price i bought my boat for on a refit.. new mast, rig and sails=30 thousand pounds.. New Engine= 20 thousand pounds. New hull refurb= 10 thousand pounds. New winches= 13 thousand pounds. Electronics= 10 thousand pounds. Plus more that i have added along the way and not accounted for.. And the boat still needs the interior doing. I wont get that money back im sure... But Id much rather have my boat than a benetau of the same size etc for the same money.
 
I'm not sure I can think of any meaningful refit program that adds even 50% of the refit cost to the boat's value.

Just for example, you could get a 1998 ish 75 foot BagliCanaLeopardLorenzoCanados at what looks a low price say e400k, but adding zero-hour work on engines and interior work/toilets/furnishings/new electronics is always going to be a e300k job that adds 100k of value, because it is still fundamentally a 1998 BagliCanaLeopardLorenzoCanados

My brother has just refitted his boat (new john Deere x 2, new genset, new decks, new Garmin nav, new galley, new fabrics, paint, swim platform, crane, Lumishores, all new fins, at a cost of more than he paid for the boat - £250k say. The value uplift is perhaps £75k (but he did it with eyes wide open!)

I'm not ignoring the fact it is not always about money, neither did my brother and and I'm sure you aren't - the refitted boat could be a stunning machine that gives you huge pleasure, in which case the money is very sell spent - I'm just answering the question you asked :D
 
Financially its not worth it - certainly not if you rip out the entire interior and make it "groovy baby" - I like the outside of the tecnomar, but the inside is a bit too marmite.
Improving an older boat as per BartW with his Canados I think is worth it. Taking a classic design and making it more usable (stabilizers and nav kit etc) and comfortable is worth it to the present owner if you plan on keeping it 10+ years.
 
If you look at the cost of a refit as a way to add (or even preserve) value then you're probably going to be disappointed.

I've spent a considerable amount over the last three years on my boat - new electronics, new entertainment systems, new interior and exterior upholstery, total refurb of gelcoat/paint, extensive refurbs/upgrades/repairs to engines/genset/control systems, etc. and more. Next year we will probably replace all of the teak. Together, these "investments" represent over 30% of the initial purchase price and yet today the boat is worth 30% less than I paid for it four years ago. A financial disaster by anyone's reckoning!

However, what I've now got is a +50ft sportscruiser which looks as though it could have come out of the factory last week with all the extras and the finish that I want, state-of-the-art equipment where I want/need it and all for less than 30% of the cost of the new equivalent ... and with the added bonus of much less depreciation to worry about in future.

Using man maths, I can just about convince myself that I've saved money ... but as jfm says, its not really been about the money!
 
kashurst said:
Financially its not worth it - certainly not if you rip out the entire interior and make it "groovy baby" - I like the outside of the tecnomar, but the inside is a bit too marmite.
Improving an older boat as per BartW with his Canados I think is worth it. Taking a classic design and making it more usable (stabilizers and nav kit etc) and comfortable is worth it to the present owner if you plan on keeping it 10+ years.
Click to expand...
Yup. There are two separate questions going on here: 1. Is refit worth it in terms of owner enjoyments (to which the answer is often yes, Bart's Blue Angel being a great example), and 2 mike's verbatim question "which refit jobs would add to the value of the boat and which wouldn't? " to which the answer is you always lose money. But there again you lose money if you buy a boat that doesn't need any refit, including a brand new boat.

This is where manmaths has to enter the discussion, and mkef himdslef is the grnad master on that topic
 
I think the knack is to find a "host " say a 15 y old Italian classic 70-90 ftr classic FB ,that's basically mechanically sound ,
Been well serviced etc ,but out of date inside .
Then add a few cosmetic up grades eg wood saloon floor , new galley units , new dash / Nav gear ,new stuff on the radar arch , a few latest flat screens , may be upholstery / covers etc ,new tender , .
Perhaps over 2-3 seasons while using -arranging it all in the off seasons .
As others have said you kinda spec it to your requirements and enjoy the use as you want it .
But and it's a big but minimise the depreciation compared to factory spec ing a new one .
Also the world is your oyster along with a good yard you can do anything ( inc 70's grovey interior if that's what you want )
For example on a very smaller scale I,am kinda refitting my Itama ,but only specific. Items .
Take air con -boat came without it fitted -( was a day boat ) great for me a +ve -cos after extensive research re niose ( done a another thread ) I knew I did not want self contained units in the cabins a / instructed what seems to be silent
Central chiller system .
Two things
1- it's all new not 15 y old
2- it's what I want others have under bunk selfies .
Also it quite interesting researching / planning etc various works .

Re maths -well I figure it like this ---- the paid price for the "host " plus another figure for the refurb -and as long as the sum is less than others equilaent asking price or there abouts price ,then it's ok ..Plus minimal depreciation .

The sun salt and sea take there toll on all boats ,looking good or keeping it looking good is more down to the maintenance regime and up keep , as opposed to the design ,which can date .

TBO I,am not sure I would buy a new one ,Preffer to buy £750 K of 2003 Pred 82 -cosmetic refurb £1-2 oo K
And buy £3M of property -that would buy a villa on Cap D Antibes .Or a nice student appartment in London (rent out other bed rooms )
Or could get filmed on a BBC 2 doc shaking hands over £4M new equivalent boat from SS .

So yes I think there is merit on buying bigger ,older and partial refurb .and man "mathically " doing something else with the brass .
 
petem said:
This refit caught my eye...

https://m.facebook.com/MarinaMarbellaUKLtd/posts/681685298638004

A slim chance of getting his money back maybe?
Click to expand...
Imho not. It's not terrible, but on balance he has shifted the demand curve the wrong way on his boat (because at best only SOME people will like a refit where the interior cherry wood has been sprayed white). Contrast what with say stabilisers, which shift the demand curve the right way because everybody wants them. They may not always shift the curve enough to get all your money back, but they at least shift it the right way imho
 
Obviously boats, money and common sense can never be bedfellows. But....


Taking JFM's £320k 75 footer with a £250k ish re-fit.

If I was going to go out and buy a new 75 footer today I'm going to spend £2.5-3 million plus. If I want out of it the next day I'm going to lose the £250k cost of the refit and the longer I keep it the more I will lose. My argument would be a period of zero expense as I wallow in the comfort of a warranty but that soon passes. Hopefully I would enjoy reliability but as we all know there is often a period of snagging first.

I could buy something under 4 or 5 years old and save money but I'm still going to get hit for depreciation at least as bad as the £250k refit. My new or nearly new boat costs a lot of money which has to come from somewhere. A loan has a cost associated, your own money could be used to generate income. The cheaper older boat plus refit will obviously have smaller money costs.

So yes, I think there is an argument for buying older and refurbishing. It isn't as well established as cars but surely the greed monster kicks in when someone sees all the refurbishment invoices come re-sale. At worst it's an inducement to purchase, and you recover the purchase price of the base boat, at best you get some of the refurb money back however small. JFM's Brother's boat with 2 new lumps and a new genny is surely worth a bit more as a result.

We've just sold a 944 Porsche which the owner had spent stratospheric money restoring, over £30k. He made choices which many others wouldn't have, new gearbox from the factory rather than refurbishing to cure the 944 whine. New factory exhaust system rather than pattern that everyone else uses. Whilst he didn't get the money back his car was worth more as a result and had he chosen the right model of Porsche he could potentially have rebuilt a car and sold it for his money back or maybe even profit. Cruising motor boats generally aren't like cars. Most people don't lust after big restored cruisers and pay silly money.

If you are sensible I think there is an argument. I would say choose a refurb style slightly more neutral than the one in MBY this month :)

Henry :)
 
I refitted my Targa 40 last year, with an engine-out mechanical refurb, extended bathing platform, complete new nav electronics suite inc DownviewAncam®, cockpit retrim (and fabulous new teak cockpit table :D) and various other bits and pieces. I think I spent about a third of the value of the boat, and I'm pretty sure the boat is worth exactly the same post-refit as it was before I started. I don't mind this at all, because it was never about the money, I just really like my T40 and I wanted to make it a bit nicer, was all.
 
I think in your case it might have meant not needing or wanting to sell and purchase again. So if it means you keep the boat another 3-5 years man maths begins to work.

If the alternative is selling one boat and buying another bigger boat to get a bigger bathing platform / new interior or whatever then the way boats are priced you spend a fortune at £100k plus per metre!

Henry :)
 
jimmy_the_builder said:
I refitted my Targa 40 last year, with an engine-out mechanical refurb, extended bathing platform, complete new nav electronics suite inc DownviewAncam®, cockpit retrim (and fabulous new teak cockpit table :D) and various other bits and pieces. I think I spent about a third of the value of the boat, and I'm pretty sure the boat is worth exactly the same post-refit as it was before I started. I don't mind this at all, because it was never about the money, I just really like my T40 and I wanted to make it a bit nicer, was all.
Click to expand...

Jimmy, have you furnished us with pics of JTB being served afternoon tea on the bathing platform yet?
 
When I saw the Tecnomar in the mag my immediate reaction was 'That'll take some selling when the time comes' but as others have commented it depends what use he gets out of it. If he spends 3 or 4 weeks and a dozen weekends a year on it he could probably justify (to himself) the spend. If, on the other hand, you buy a mainstream boat and keep the upgrades on the right side of the curve it won't get your money back but you will be able to shift it a bit easier when your man maths is no longer justified.
 
I think most of us have an ongoing upgrade/refurb list on our boats, no matter what age. at one end of the spectrum JFM carried out a significant amount of work on M2 with his hardtop last year. Vas has resurrected his Mystere. Neither of them for financial reasons, but both fantastic outcomes for their owners.
At the other end, Rafiki benefited from her interior refurb last summer. Financial sense? Certainly not, but we are absolutely delighted with the outcome. Electronics are next on the list, with plenty of other things likely to empty the purse as we go.
Thank goodness for Man Maths:D
 
jfm said:
But there again you lose money if you buy a boat that doesn't need any refit, including a brand new boat.
Click to expand...
Yes that was the essence of my long winded point. If you buy any 82 footer these days, new or say less than 5yrs old, you're going to lose a load of money in depreciation so does it make more financial sense to buy an older boat for a cheap price which has done most of its depreciating and refit it? And no you may not even need a PhD in Man Maths to justify it:D
 
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