Can a Bowman charge air cooler become clogged on the air side?

[Murv]

lancing marine will have what you need if you have the number of the part, as you say Bowman have gone snotty this year.

Good call, I did have a look at the website but it wasn't clear which ones I needed.
Just spoke to Mike Bellamy, the designation FC3 is enough, they're on their way!

 

[omega2]

Good call, I did have a look at the website but it wasn't clear which ones I needed.
Just spoke to Mike Bellamy, the designation FC3 is enough, they're on their way!

asap have them as well

http://www.asap-supplies.com/marine/bowman-intercoolers/bowman-o-ring-os46nt

 

[Murv]

Thanks for that, I did try ASAP but they couldn't commit without an exact part number. FC3 wasn't enough for them

 

[Murv]

Right, managed to remove the charge air cooler today without breaking anything or nearly sinking the boat. So far, so good.

One Bowman FC3 ready for cleaning...

Endcaps removed, most allen bolts were murderously tight, but one was loose and not fully inserted.
Some of Medways finest was stuck in the end of the core...

Just need to knock the core out now. Generally, I'm a big fan of removing things that are just held in with resistance, it's one of the very few things I'm actually good at. However, Lancing did warn me that the ends of the core are soft soldered.
I have absolutely no idea what soft soldering is, but it sounds like the sort of thing unlikely to respond well to my usual technique of pinning the thing to the floor with a boot and beating it with my favourite club hammer.
I gave it a few tentative taps, it didn't want to budge and I didn't push the issue, deciding it was better to have a partially clean intact cooler than a sparkling clean broken one.
Still, with new O rings to go in, it meant I could attack the thing with some aggressive solvents without fear of damaging the rubber.
So, a good wash out, several solvent washes and a fair amount of sludge came out

I'm not convinced it was enough to halve the air pressure passing through it, but, it was very gritty and not the sort of stuff you want rammed into an inlet manifold. So, good to get it all out.
Then, much to my Wife's delight, I dried the rest of the solvent out in the oven then got the hoover on it to draw any remaining particles out.
New O rings fitted, reassembled with threadlock on the bolts, and I just need to reinstall it without breaking anything else or sinking the boat.

Fingers crossed!

 

[omega2]

use a soft mallet, and tap the core, with the case supported on wood blocks, make sure you have removed the rubbers as they can hold on. A small screwdriver will tweek them out, if the core is reluctant to move one way then try from the other end, the amount of muck you show is negligable and they need to be cleaned properly, and I mean properly. When the core is out you will see what I am talking about. those tubes are pretty tough. There is no way soaking will get rid of the crud. find yourself a steam cleaning shop. This one is ready for the treatment.

 

[Murv]

Hmmmm, point taken.
This is the core after being soaked in hot water, acetone, hexane and iso-octane.
Thanks for inspiring me to do it properly, I shall try and find a steam cleaner on Monday. Can't believe the state of it!

 

[superheat6k]

Next thing I would try would be caustic soda, but wear gloves and goggles.

 

[omega2]

Hmmmm, point taken.
This is the core after being soaked in hot water, acetone, hexane and iso-octane.
Thanks for inspiring me to do it properly, I shall try and find a steam cleaner on Monday. Can't believe the state of it!

NOW YOU BIT THE BULLET, get it cleaned properly, you can see what I mean? something about a fair maidens and feint hearts LOL NOT UNEXPECTED TO FIND ALL THAT S-----T, as you can now see the air inside the case has circulate in and around those tubes in order to be cooled before it gets sucked into the inlet manifold, so I reckon you are at least 50% down on air.

 

[Murv]

Next thing I would try would be caustic soda, but wear gloves and goggles.

To be honest, I'd be worried about oxidization damaging the core. I'll find a steam cleaners on Monday, apparently some valeting firms use steam cleaning to clean engines, which sounds ideal.

NOW YOU BIT THE BULLET, get it cleaned properly, you can see what I mean? something about a fair maidens and feint hearts LOL NOT UNEXPECTED TO FIND ALL THAT S-----T, as you can now see the air inside the case has circulate in and around those tubes in order to be cooled before it gets sucked into the inlet manifold, so I reckon you are at least 50% down on air.

I'm seriously shocked at how crudded up it is. I'd assumed that even if some crud was left behind, the air will just flow around the core. But, it has sealing rings all the way along to force the air flow through the core, so it must be affecting the amount of air it can process, it can't not be.
I don't want any of that **** being blown into the manifold in any case!
No wonder the turbo failed with all that going through it.
Thanks again for your help, really appreciate it.

 

[Bilgediver]

To be honest, I'd be worried about oxidization damaging the core. I'll find a steam cleaners on Monday, apparently some valeting firms use steam cleaning to clean engines, which sounds ideal.



I'm seriously shocked at how crudded up it is. I'd assumed that even if some crud was left behind, the air will just flow around the core. But, it has sealing rings all the way along to force the air flow through the core, so it must be affecting the amount of air it can process, it can't not be.
I don't want any of that **** being blown into the manifold in any case!
No wonder the turbo failed with all that going through it.
Thanks again for your help, really appreciate it.

If you chip off bits of the solid crud what does it appear to be??????? is it possibly salt from a leaky tube or some thing.....if so non of the things you tried will sort it!!!!

Might be worth getting some brick cleaner and just try a bit on the solid deposits if it is white or off white where chipped!

 

[burgundyben]

I've had success with soaking them in brick cleaner.

Or pay to have it ultrasonic cleaned.

 

[omega2]

£10 tops!!

 

[omega2]

If you chip off bits of the solid crud what does it appear to be??????? is it possibly salt from a leaky tube or some thing.....if so non of the things you tried will sort it!!!!

Might be worth getting some brick cleaner and just try a bit on the solid deposits if it is white or off white where chipped!

iT TAKES A FEW YEARS TO GET THAT BAD, but given time all of you will have the pleasure of cleaning charge air coolers and header tank/oil coolers before your done. Forget the "cleaners" BLAST with hot water, and stand well clear.

 

[Latestarter1]

I have been observing this thread with interest.

Do not use brick cleaner, much of the deposit is baked on oil carryover, steam cleaning may be effective but without doubt ultrasonic cleaning with 'Scufflite' is the best and safest method for all CAC's

Being SWAC obsessed when where the charge coolers cleaned? I work to a three year rule on commercial applications and would be nice to see in some leisure vessels and five years is the absolute maximum,which is one reason why I avoid SWAC on marinisations if at all possible.

After cleaning rebuild using a non setting rubber friendly plumbing sealant and always pressure test.

Let's now start thinking about some of the causes of your issues instead of focusing on the problem.

Lancing Marine work is at best poor/amateurish resulting in many in service issues. Whilst I tend to agree with comments by Lynall regarding turbocharger oil carryover on LDA (Light Duty Automotive) Diesel engines, it is technically wrong to simply accept it. How about some pictures of your turbocharger installation paying particular attention to the routing of the drain line, for example I have seen LM engines which look OK on the bench, however when installed in the boat drain line is close to uphill, resulting in lube backing up in bearing housing and turbocharger passing oil.

Please try to adopt a more systematic approach to trouble-shooting, in normal service the Bosch VE is a super reliable and trouble free pump. Lynall's comments regarding tuning the VE, caused a smile, as the the version used on Land Rover vehicles is unsuitable for tuning, however I digress.

Take some pictures all around the engine and post.

 

[Murv]

Latestarter, I don't know when the cooler was cleaned, I've had the boat just over a Year, the repower was carried out 10 Years ago. I suspect, purely by looking at the paint on the bolts, that it's never been done. But, the O rings are in good condition although I've absolutely no idea what their typical lifespan is.

I shall get some pictures when I refit the (cleaned) cooler, thank you. From what I remember the drain line does run vertically down to the sump, but I'll get some pictures and check.

There are three possible issues I've found regarding the low boost. One, obviously the cooler is in dire need of a clean.
Secondly, the boost gauge is a mechanical one. The feed hose for it, where it taps off from the manifold, isn't very secure. It's stretched slightly and wasn't cable tied.
Thirdly, the air inlet on the manifold has a lug which pierces the air hose from the cooler, presumably to hold it in place although it seems fairly pointless. The hose clip has always been secured over this lug, it doesn't seem impossible to me that securing the clip over the lug could result in small gaps at the side of the lug, so when I refit I'll secure it to smooth metal (if that makes sense)
Hopefully, the cause is one of the above, or a combination of the three.

Regarding the pump, I'm very fortunate in that I know a mechanic who specialises in diesel fuelling, he builds his own mechanical conversions of fuel pumps. So, if the above fixes don't solve the problem, he's going to come over and check the fuelling. I really don't want to play around with the pump myself, I know my limits!!

 

[Murv]

If you chip off bits of the solid crud what does it appear to be??????? is it possibly salt from a leaky tube or some thing.....if so non of the things you tried will sort it!!!!

Might be worth getting some brick cleaner and just try a bit on the solid deposits if it is white or off white where chipped!

I've no idea what it is, I've been wondering that!
Whatever it was is (or was) bound together by oil, but that's all removed now from the solvent washing.
It's quite gritty, I suspect some of it is swarf from the old, damaged turbo but not all of it.
It can't be salt either because the hot water washes would have stripped that out.
The cooler must be prone to condensation, at least in between running, anyway.
I suppose it's just air borne debris that accumulates over the Years? if you think of the volume of air the thing sees, it must be pretty vast.
I'm sure it didn't help that the previous owner ran it with no air filtration at all.

 

[Latestarter1]

I've no idea what it is, I've been wondering that!
Whatever it was is (or was) bound together by oil, but that's all removed now from the solvent washing.
It's quite gritty, I suspect some of it is swarf from the old, damaged turbo but not all of it.
It can't be salt either because the hot water washes would have stripped that out.
The cooler must be prone to condensation, at least in between running, anyway.
I suppose it's just air borne debris that accumulates over the Years? if you think of the volume of air the thing sees, it must be pretty vast.
I'm sure it didn't help that the previous owner ran it with no air filtration at all.

All SWAC's are subject to condensation due to sea air dew point however does no harm.

Going back to my original post, what has caused turbo failure??

 

[Murv]

All SWAC's are subject to condensation due to sea air dew point however does no harm.

Going back to my original post, what has caused turbo failure??

I've no idea.
The turbo had failed when I bought the boat. It was running, but at 2.5psi max boost and with play in the compressor side. I suspect the vanes were damaged by running it with no filter, but I don't know what killed the bearings as the oil feed is flowing freely.

 

[Latestarter1]

I've no idea.
The turbo had failed when I bought the boat. It was running, but at 2.5psi max boost and with play in the compressor side. I suspect the vanes were damaged by running it with no filter, but I don't know what killed the bearings as the oil feed is flowing freely.

Sorry to labor a point, however can I clarify a few points....

In another post way back you were asking about low boost #''s and you were failing to make WOT rpm by a country mile, your tec was telling you that you were over propped,was this ever resolved?

Turbo failure analysis is real simple, dust ingestion is rarely a problem on marine engines, years ago Sabre and Mermaid used to fit a simple grille to prevent seagulls or small children being sucked into the turbo. You say compressor wheel is damaged possibly by debris, can you post a picture of damage? Air-side damage is is very rare in marine installations and evidence is real simple to spot as compressor wheel and the nozzle have the appearance of being sand blasted.

Most usual failure on marine engines is on the turbine side where the housing becomes corroded by salt laden atmosphere which in turn damages the turbine. What does your exhaust side look like?

How much oil is turbo passing, is the compressor housing rank with lube oil due to the compressor sucking oil past piston ring seals?

How much play do you actually have in your bearing housing? Once the turbo is apart bearing failure due to lack of lubrication is apparent as the shaft is is blued.

On a separate point you also mentioned having incorrect injectors, where does all this fit into the big picture??

 

[Murv]

Overpropping: This was half resolved. I fitted a smaller prop, I can't remember now the exact size but it was smaller in both diameter and had less pitch. It increased rpm by 500, but made no difference to boost pressure or top speed obtained.
I've since found the original spec sheet supplied by Lancing when the repower was carried out, they supplied a 16X21 long hub which is the prop currently fitted.

I can't post pictures, the turbo has been rebuilt and I didn't get any shots before it went. The compressor vanes had small chips around the edges.

The exhaust side looked Ok before rebuild, the vanes looked to be in good condition, and there was very little discernible play in the bearing from that side.

I don't know how much oil it was passing, there was a small pool of oil settled in the inlet housing when the turbo was layed on it's side after removal. It was never vast amounts, it didn't smoke excessively when running.
Play was quite considerable though, difficult to quantify but it was probably rocking by 2mm or so?

The incorrect injectors were instantly spotted by my mechanic. Originally, it would have been fitted with the Yellow spot full flow 130ps injectors, but at some point they had been swapped back to 75ps injectors. The thinking was that if the injectors were incapable of supplying enough fuel, full boost or power was never going to be achievable.

It's certainly helped, previously I was reaching 2300rpm and 2.5psi boost at WOT, with the rebuilt turbo and full flow injectors it's now reaching 3100rpm and 7 psi. But, it's still not enough to get on plane, top speed has not altered at all, only the elevation!