Calling London VTS For Permission to Cross Black Deep
- Thread starter PaulRainbow
- Start date
Malish
Well-Known Member
not surprised they are becoming a little 'irritated' look forward to an update from ECP
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
If one is transmitting AIS data that should be enough. If they want you they can call you.
I have been called by Sunk VTS at the top end of the Black deep when en route from the Gunfleet Spit to Longsand Head
All polite & in the first instance they asked me to wait & in the second instance made me aware of a vessel proceeding along the Deep
Point is that I never had to contact anyone first. They knew I was there
I have been called by Sunk VTS at the top end of the Black deep when en route from the Gunfleet Spit to Longsand Head
All polite & in the first instance they asked me to wait & in the second instance made me aware of a vessel proceeding along the Deep
Point is that I never had to contact anyone first. They knew I was there
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
According to the regulations (previously quoted on here) you do have to contact them, but it appears that the rules were enacted before anyone realised their significance in relation to small leisure vessels and the resulting potential proliferation of calls.
From experience in related matters, it will likely be too onerous to redraft the regulations to address this issue alone, and they will hope that continuing ignorance of the requirement by most leisure boat sailors, and forbearance by the VTS staff, will suffice until a need for a more thoroughgoing update of the regulations provides an opportunity to clarify reporting requirements (if any) for small leisure vessels.
Plum
Well-Known Member
I called them today and also last Friday when crossing the Black Deep. Each time they were efficient and courteous and gave me permission.
oilybilge
Well-Known Member
Why are we supposed to do this for the black deep in particular, and not for the other shipping lanes?
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Cap Griz Nez called me once when I was heading North after leaving Boulogne & told me to contact Dover CG when I entered their side of the Channel. They started by asking me if I was Ok- It was V rough & a good F7. I did so & I suspect that it was due to the exceptional amount of shipping that day
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Because the Port of London Authority has some Regulations which include a rule particularly about the Black Deep. There are some other rules elsewhere which exempt leisure craft.
I wrote to the PLA last year to query the particular Regulation and was told that all vessels (i.e. including us) with a draught of less 6m needs permission. The exchange of emails were very cordial and the sense was that the PLA just wanted to be aware and it would be very unlikely to refuse permission. Now the Regulations have the effect of Law and if you fail to comply with any Regulation you/we commit an offence which I think could be a max fine of £2k.
It so happens that yesterday the annual consultation over the Regulations ended (i.e. some new changes but that doesn't affect us) but I shall email to them and ask for clarity and suggest if the VTS staff don't want to be troubled that the particular Regulation is amended. I must say that every contact with the PLA was been very good and the VTS has been equally good so I think the last thing we want is to cause any trouble.
ducked
Well-Known Member
Paulfireblade
Well-Known Member
Three weeks ago on a club Trip to France via Ramsgate we were all planning to cross black deep to Foulgers Gat. We all left at different times, the first few were given permission to cross but an hour or so later the response from London VTS changed to “you do not require permission, you should monitor the VHF channel, keep a look out and cross when safe.”
When pushed further I was told “you are not a reporting vessel”
Where does it mention that in the regulations?
On the way home, I didn’t bother to request permission and I transmit on AIS so they knew I was there but I was not contacted.
On the day in question it may have been a shift change or he got fed up of being contacted for permission.
Either way it needs proper clarification as the rules say one thing and the radio operator is saying something else.
When pushed further I was told “you are not a reporting vessel”
Where does it mention that in the regulations?
On the way home, I didn’t bother to request permission and I transmit on AIS so they knew I was there but I was not contacted.
On the day in question it may have been a shift change or he got fed up of being contacted for permission.
Either way it needs proper clarification as the rules say one thing and the radio operator is saying something else.
Boathook
Well-Known Member
Hopefully they record all radio traffic just in case something goes wrong.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
'Reporting vessels' are described in the regulations - ships are required to call in at different locations whether going into the London river. We are not 'reporting vessels'.
7 REPORTING VESSEL MOVEMENTS
(7.1) This General Direction shall only apply to Reporting Vessels
(7.2) With the exception of Intra-port Vessels, a Reporting Vessel must confirm with London VTS prior to
navigating in the Thames, whether inbound or outbound:
(a) the Vessel’s International Ship and Port Facility Security Code security level;
(b) the number of persons on board;
(c) the Vessel’s maximum draught; and
(d) if intending to embark or disembark a Pilot, that the pilot ladder is properly maintained and
will be rigged in accordance with the requirements of General Direction 11;
(e) any navigational deficiency, serious defect or any other situation where the Vesselmaypresent
an additional risk to port operations during navigation.
(7.3) (a) London VTS must be notified 10 minutes before the Vessel intends to get Underway, moves
between berths or shifts at a berth in the Thames. Permission to Proceed must be requested
and approved immediately before the Vessel is navigated. If Navigation has not commenced
within 15 minutes of the initial advice, London VTS is to be informed.
(b) Vessels berthing or mooring for less than 10 minutes need not give the notice specified in 7.3
(a). Such vessels must still obtain Permission to Proceed immediately before the Vessel is
navigated.
(c) Vessels intending to leave Tilbury Docks for the Thames must notify London VTS prior to letting
go lines.
(7.4) When the Vessel passes a reporting point, a report must be made to London VTS that the Vessel is
passing that reporting point. When entering a VTS Sector, the report must include the Vessel’s
intended route or destination.
Note: A full list of current reporting points is published on charts and in the relevant Admiralty List of
Radio Signals and the PLA’s Port Information Guide.
(7.5) Vessels intending to navigate in the Knock John Channel must report to London VTS:
(a) when entering the Estuary VTS Sector inward-bound, their ETA for Knock John No.1 Buoy;
(b) when entering the Estuary VTS Sector outward-bound, their ETA for Knock John No.4 Buoy;
(c) an updated ETA, if the ETA previously reported changes.
It may be that the PLA did not expect the volume of leisure craft on occasions and perhaps such calls might distract them from more important traffic. I do wonder what instructions have been issued to Operators as to when permission should be refusal. I have emailed the PLA and I think we need to be patient until there is a response.
7 REPORTING VESSEL MOVEMENTS
(7.1) This General Direction shall only apply to Reporting Vessels
(7.2) With the exception of Intra-port Vessels, a Reporting Vessel must confirm with London VTS prior to
navigating in the Thames, whether inbound or outbound:
(a) the Vessel’s International Ship and Port Facility Security Code security level;
(b) the number of persons on board;
(c) the Vessel’s maximum draught; and
(d) if intending to embark or disembark a Pilot, that the pilot ladder is properly maintained and
will be rigged in accordance with the requirements of General Direction 11;
(e) any navigational deficiency, serious defect or any other situation where the Vesselmaypresent
an additional risk to port operations during navigation.
(7.3) (a) London VTS must be notified 10 minutes before the Vessel intends to get Underway, moves
between berths or shifts at a berth in the Thames. Permission to Proceed must be requested
and approved immediately before the Vessel is navigated. If Navigation has not commenced
within 15 minutes of the initial advice, London VTS is to be informed.
(b) Vessels berthing or mooring for less than 10 minutes need not give the notice specified in 7.3
(a). Such vessels must still obtain Permission to Proceed immediately before the Vessel is
navigated.
(c) Vessels intending to leave Tilbury Docks for the Thames must notify London VTS prior to letting
go lines.
(7.4) When the Vessel passes a reporting point, a report must be made to London VTS that the Vessel is
passing that reporting point. When entering a VTS Sector, the report must include the Vessel’s
intended route or destination.
Note: A full list of current reporting points is published on charts and in the relevant Admiralty List of
Radio Signals and the PLA’s Port Information Guide.
(7.5) Vessels intending to navigate in the Knock John Channel must report to London VTS:
(a) when entering the Estuary VTS Sector inward-bound, their ETA for Knock John No.1 Buoy;
(b) when entering the Estuary VTS Sector outward-bound, their ETA for Knock John No.4 Buoy;
(c) an updated ETA, if the ETA previously reported changes.
It may be that the PLA did not expect the volume of leisure craft on occasions and perhaps such calls might distract them from more important traffic. I do wonder what instructions have been issued to Operators as to when permission should be refusal. I have emailed the PLA and I think we need to be patient until there is a response.
dansaskip
Well-Known Member
I crossed The Black Deep on this Friday afternoon. Coming through the wind farm at Foulgers Gat I saw a container ship passing southwards but it was well clear by the time I arrived at Long Sand Inner. There was nothing else showing on AIS and my set was switched to transmit and visibility was very good. So I crossed and then across the Little Sunk to the Kings Channel.
My personal opinion is that since when have we had to ask for permission to sail in our home waters.
So no I did not radio London VTS to ask their permission and they did not contact me.
I note with interest Little Sister's comments
" I called London VTS on VHF69 for permission to cross Black Deep (as per latest published info). Response was polite and helpful, but operator advised no need to report. "
And as others have commented why the The Black Deep and not other shipping channels?
As Paul Fireblade says
"Either way it needs proper clarification as the rules say one thing and the radio operator is saying something else."
My personal opinion is that since when have we had to ask for permission to sail in our home waters.
So no I did not radio London VTS to ask their permission and they did not contact me.
I note with interest Little Sister's comments
I also note this comment from Roy Clare as highlighted by Paul Rainbow in his post
" I called London VTS on VHF69 for permission to cross Black Deep (as per latest published info). Response was polite and helpful, but operator advised no need to report. "
And as others have commented why the The Black Deep and not other shipping channels?
As Paul Fireblade says
"Either way it needs proper clarification as the rules say one thing and the radio operator is saying something else."
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I seem to recall (or perhaps just imagined?) that it was part of a wider reorganisation of the port's recommended tracks for ships, presumably to best accommodate the current/emerging traffic patterns (increasing size of some of them? the switch of some ship lines from Felixstowe to the Thames?) changes in depths/obstructions in some channels, and perhaps new assessment of where potential conflicts had occurred in the past or might arise in the future.
I am guessing they wanted to keep Black Deep clear of potentially conflicting traffic (shallower draft ships?) that could use other routes when deep draft ships were using Black Deep. There is plenty of width in the Black Deep for a deep draft ship to pass or overtake a (sensibly piloted) leisure yacht, but presumably it's a lot tighter for two ships to pass, or cross paths with, one another, with the risk of a grounding or even a collision.
PeterBoater
Well-Known Member
Since General Directions, Byelaws, NtMs etc said so.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
See the Local List this week in the Notices to Mariners (week 28). There is some Pre-Lay works along the Black Deep prior to cable laying. At the moment it doesn't affect Foulgers or Fisherman's Gat but going round the Long Sand Head will later be working there - perhaps August.
Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
The PLA have issued new General Directions, which come into force 1 September.
Item 17.5 states an "Exception for Recreational Vessels to cross Black Deep without contacting VTS for permission".
Item 17.5 states an "Exception for Recreational Vessels to cross Black Deep without contacting VTS for permission".
Paulfireblade
Well-Known Member
That is my understanding, I was happy to abide by their rules but plainly it had become burdensome to VTS operators.
yozza
New Member
I may have missed any discussion on this, but doesn't the seaward limit of PLA lie just to the west of Foulgers Gat?
So if you are crossing Black Deep via Foulgers or the extreme eastern edge of Fisherman's you'd be outside PLA jurisdiction.
So if you are crossing Black Deep via Foulgers or the extreme eastern edge of Fisherman's you'd be outside PLA jurisdiction.