Call yourself an engineer?

Olewill, you are right about the French. The academie francaise tries to stop any use of other language words . 'Le Weekend' is classic, and much used. Trouble is, by the time they come up with a french equivalent, the phrase or word is well entrenched. I am, of course, writing this on my 'ordinateur' tho my french friends call them PCs :-)
Andrew

Should have signed 'Truth Engineer' acording to one?
 
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gordmac said:
Unlike more civilised parts of the world the term engineer is not protected/regulated in this country, anyone can call themselves an engineer. I suspect there is a correlation between countries with a good industrial base and respect for professional engineers.
The person who fixes your engine is not an engineer, he is a mechanic. The person who designed your engine is an engineer.
To suggest that an engineer who can't repair something is not a real engineer is nonsense, that is what mechanics are for. You wouldn't expect a mechanic to be able to design what he repairs, that is not his job.
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Not only can I fix 'em I can design 'em too. Does that make me an engineer or a mechanic? Usually on a ship there isn't the advanced capability to manufacture a required part. So we use an onboard spare supplied by the manufacturer, or, if not available have the smarts to be able to cobble something together that will be able to withstand the stresses placed on it to get us home.
I also need a good working knowledge of thermodynamics, mechanics and naval acr' to name but a few, but none of that gets me a degree, only after a minimum of 36 months experience does it get me a certificate that allows me to be a chief engineer as only then am I deemed competent (thankfully spelling and grammer were not a requirement!!).
Rgds
Bob
 
In 1974 I was sent by my international company to their research laboratories in Madrid to head a communications software project there. The Spanish company categorised me as “Ingeniero” based on my position and qualifications and I received the relevant badge to be worn at all times within the complex.

I was staggered at the general level of status and respect that this grade received both formally by the company and in the day-to-day contact by staff with whom I had to interface. I found out that in Spain such a title conferred a public status equivalent to a doctor or lawyer back in the UK. Of course, those years were the final throes of the Franco regime and were marked by a very rigid social stratification.

After some years I accepted a position in Switzerland and implemented large industrial projects throughout Europe for my Swiss company. Wherever I worked in continental Europe I was given a high level of respect and status by my customers and by my employer. In Italy I was even addressed by my engineer title, which I suspected as p*ss-taking at the time but changed my mind later when I heard my Italian customer equivalent also so addressed – it was like being on another planet compared to my years of working in the UK.

But more importantly, it didn't stop there, technical engineering graduates were considered, even favoured in German-speaking countries, for promotion into senior non-technical management positions – a career path just not available in my years in the UK, although that may have changed after my departure.

I have often wondered if the grounds for these very different attitudes were based on the use of “Engineer” for any sort of fitter or mechanic – perhaps it changed the whole meaning and public perception of the word.
 
Title of Engineer

!. Does it matter?

2. Most replies so far seem to deal with mechanical engineering in some form or other. It may be a good idea to look at the root for engineer, I believe it comes from Latin - ingenium - ie ingenious.

3. The definition of an engineer in the great charter of the Institution of Civil Engineers is something like this:- " one who harnesses the great forces of nature for the use and convenience of mankind". Not much about engines/spanners there.

4. If you want an engineer who has a full training, both academic and practical, look for a "Chartered Engineer". I believe you can be sued if you describe yourself as "Chartered" if you are not so qualified. I seem to remember that for parliamentary purposes it is necessary to be chartered.

5. This does not mean that you cannot be an excellent engineer if you are not chartered.

6. Also look around for a chap with a good reputation in the field with which you are concerned/need help.
 
A Few Thoughts

Firstly I am a chartered civil & structural engineer but my secondary school was a technical college where we did woodwork, technical drawing, foundry work and metal work.

Under H & S you would no longer be able too operate the machines we did. On one occasion I packed the sand in the mould too tight and the steam escaping through the molten metal formed a volcano!

To pay for my degree I repaired cars. I just picked up this ability naturally following the secondary education but you can't do everything and what history, geography, french and english literature I have picked up I learnt in my own time.

The attitude that is a thread through this post has always been present in England. Once a chap knocked on the door of the Institution of Civil Engineers and asked to become a member to be rudely told he was a blacksmith and to b*gger off. He duly B*ggered off and formed the institution of mechanical engineers and his name was Stevenson - the rest as they say is history!

In the 60's & 70's it was commented on the rise of Japanese Industry was due to the number of engineers and ONLY having 5000 chartered accountants while decline of British Industry was being successfully managed with 125,000 chartered accountants.

I found it an interesting comment on the industrial success of China that ALL members of the Politic Bureau were initially trained as Engineers.

Len Deighton in his book "Blood Sweat & Folly" take various battles in WW2 and traces back the historical facts that predetermined the outcomes. One of his interesting observations was the quality of German engineering and the superiority of their weapons for most of the war was due to their education system and respect for engineers while the english system had the grammar schools that copied the public schools and encouraged people into finance or the civil service.

Before anyone quotes Radar I was surprised to learn that the Germans had superior Radar to the English at the start of the war and that we had to visit the scuttled Graf Spee to inspect and dismantle the mast mounted gunnery radar to learn its secrets. It was only in the co-ordination and management of the english air defence radar that we were superior
 
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Barnicle's comments about Spain also apply to Portugal, one of the Prime Ministers of the 80s was an engineer and this was first in forms of address, well ahead of Dr.
A
 
Yes that's been my experience too. Even as an undergraduate on an exchange with a German university I quickly found (to my utter surprise and delight) that I could even "pull birds" in night clubs by telling tham what I was studying! As a "first line" that was pretty low on the list worth trying back in the UK where the best one might hope for would be an "oh, my hairdryer packed up the other day, could you have a look at it for me"?

I don't believe that, as a profession, it gets the recognition it deserves, and I believe that this (once great engineering nation) is very much the worse for it. Mind you, it's not ALL bad news. Most of the engineers I have met or worked with in the UK, are people who are in the profession becaue they love it rather than because they like the pay or the kudos. I can't say the same of all the lawyers or medics I've met!
 
I'll hold my hand up.

If we take your definition of an engineer then I'm not one?

I call myself an engineer because I did a fitter & turner apprenticeship way back in the late 60's. I can use all types of machine tools and produce whatever you need given a drawing. If you pushed me I can produce what you want if you give me yer broken bit?
Over the years I've worked on just about every type of engine you can imagine from v12 cyl Detroit diesels (locomotives) to single pot 2 strokes, I've built tea bagging machines, machines to fill "square deal" Surf boxes, wire stitchers, bottle fillers, hardness testing machines, petrol pump blender valves, Hercules aircraft hydrualic manifolds, predictor gearboxes ~ I could go on.
Over the years as "an engineer" I've visited/worked in almost every concievable type of factory from "Timex" watches to ship builders, to neuclear power plants and weapons establishments.

So after 40+ years and with all the experience that goes with that, maybe I shouldn't call myself an engineer, but a simple mechanic?

It's your call?

Peter.
 
TheBoatman said:
If we take your definition of an engineer then I'm not one?

I call myself an engineer because I did a fitter & turner apprenticeship way back in the late 60's. I can use all types of machine tools and produce whatever you need given a drawing. If you pushed me I can produce what you want if you give me yer broken bit?
Over the years I've worked on just about every type of engine you can imagine from v12 cyl Detroit diesels (locomotives) to single pot 2 strokes, I've built tea bagging machines, machines to fill "square deal" Surf boxes, wire stitchers, bottle fillers, hardness testing machines, petrol pump blender valves, Hercules aircraft hydrualic manifolds, predictor gearboxes ~ I could go on.
Over the years as "an engineer" I've visited/worked in almost every concievable type of factory from "Timex" watches to ship builders, to neuclear power plants and weapons establishments.

So after 40+ years and with all the experience that goes with that, maybe I shouldn't call myself an engineer, but a simple mechanic?

It's your call?

Peter.
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I served my time as a PSV/HGV fitter, where I was taught to weld, spray paint, body work, electrics and so on along with normal mechanical stuff. The companies I worked for expected me to lay my hand to anything, replace office doors, re plumb the loos, production equipment repairs and odd stuff like the bosses orange juicer! I am certainly not a mechanic, but engineer? nah leave that for the uni lads, I am what it says on the tin(papers) Fitter. So what if I over-engineer something, it will still be working in 30 years time. We do need to go back to real apprenticeships, when I started it had just been dropped from 5 to 4 years and all the old guys were complaining that they could not teach a young lad in 4 years, they will be turning in their graves now, 6 months pahh still learning how to clean their tools.
 
This thread seems to have touched a nerve in a few, don't see what all the fuss is about personally. Room for us all. I did a mech eng apprenticeship in the early 70's, graduated in the late 70's and was granted Chartered status in 1981. I've enjoyed a great career; lived in Italy for a while and travelled to many places on the globe. However, I couldn't do many of the things mentioned in this chain; wouldn't want to becuase I know my limits. Call me what ever you want providing the pay packet still supports my boating vice!
 
davidjackson said:
This thread seems to have touched a nerve in a few, don't see what all the fuss is about personally. Room for us all. I did a mech eng apprenticeship in the early 70's, graduated in the late 70's and was granted Chartered status in 1981. I've enjoyed a great career; lived in Italy for a while and travelled to many places on the globe. However, I couldn't do many of the things mentioned in this chain; wouldn't want to becuase I know my limits. Call me what ever you want providing the pay packet still supports my boating vice!
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Well David I think you have touched on why nerves are sensitive in the UK. It's about status and the pay packet that goes with it. In most instances to achieve chartered status you have to work equally as hard, if not harder than an accountant does and accountants are thought more highly of than engineers and generally paid a lot more too.
You and I have overcome this by working abroad. Shame we had to though. Part of the problem in the UK is that most people think an engineer is someone with an oily rag in his pocket. A lot of my time, especially now I am retired, I DO have an oily rag in my pocket, but that's because I am a practical bloke and like getting my hands dirty. It has never been part of my job.
No, sorry, when you call a technician or mechanic an engineer you actually degrade both. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a practical technician and it's a valuable job so why pretend you are anything else? Many indeed are trained specialists in a narrow field and know more about that subject than I do. But its NOT a profession and the whole point here is that non professional people, by calling themselves engineers are not being honest. Personally I think that is one reason why we have a problem getting bright kids to go into engineering these days. I certainly advised my son not to and he is now earning a very good salary as a geologist.
 
TheBoatman said:
If we take your definition of an engineer then I'm not one?

I call myself an engineer because I did a fitter & turner apprenticeship way back in the late 60's. I can use all types of machine tools and produce whatever you need given a drawing. If you pushed me I can produce what you want if you give me yer broken bit?
Over the years I've worked on just about every type of engine you can imagine from v12 cyl Detroit diesels (locomotives) to single pot 2 strokes, I've built tea bagging machines, machines to fill "square deal" Surf boxes, wire stitchers, bottle fillers, hardness testing machines, petrol pump blender valves, Hercules aircraft hydrualic manifolds, predictor gearboxes ~ I could go on.
Over the years as "an engineer" I've visited/worked in almost every concievable type of factory from "Timex" watches to ship builders, to neuclear power plants and weapons establishments.

So after 40+ years and with all the experience that goes with that, maybe I shouldn't call myself an engineer, but a simple mechanic?

It's your call?

Peter.
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Why do you say simple? I'd consider myself an adequate technician (I can solder, understand circuit diagrams, etc.) and an engineer ( I design and implement electronic and computing systems, albeit not at component level anymore). The one thing I'm NOT is a good mechanic. I can do the real basics on an engine and SWMBO has hidden all my tools after seeing what damage I can do with them.

The problem with this thread seems to be that people are trying to say "is mechanic or a technician deluding him/herself by calling themselves an engineer", implying that an engineer is a rung above a mechanic. You may as well ask is a Tennis player better than a Rugby player.

The thing that's degraded the mechanic's role is actually the designs produced by the engineers, which are optimised for production and disposal, not maintenance and longevity. The general public no longer have constant contact with mechanics and have forgotten what a good mechanic can do.

Wish I had mechanical skills - I judge a person by how good they are at what they do, not at what they do. I have far more respect for the person who quietly mops the floor all day, keeping it clean without disturbing others working around them, than I do for the CEO of a multi-national who won't admit he's got it wrong or the designer who produces totally unrealistic work.
 
I agree wholeheartedly. They are different skill sets. Not better, not worse, just different. As I said in an earlier post, I consider myself to be a pretty good (but AMATEUR) mechanic. I have worked with "proper" mechanics and have marvelled at their skill, speed and dexterity. I know I could never hope to emulate that! I can weld, turn and mill well enough for my purposes, but once again, I have worked with "proper" millers, turners and welders and the difference isn't hard to see! I can even laminate (a bit!) but I've seen laminators who are just so good that they could probably lay up a boat whilst wearing a tuxedo and still get it done better and faster than me AND not get as messy!

Mind you, that doesn't mean to say that any of them could do MY job either. I am quite prepared to accept that there will be overlap. Perhaps I could weld better than a very bad welder and I daresay that there are plenty of skilled, experienced, and time-served guys out on the shop floor that could teach me a thing or two about designing a component too!
 
This thread IMHO has got sidetracked with discussions of Engineers, Technicians and Mechanics. The problem is that while debating the relevant merits of each of these we are missing trhe point that uniquely in the Uk ALL are bottom of the rung jobs with bankers, doctors, accountants, lawyers, politicians and journalists being held in higher regard and most times better paid.

With international competition rather than just national markets the best will take over the worse. That is why France's modest financiers are buying all our utilities companies with only a relatively modest but sound 8% profit margin and their engineers will be building our next generation of nuclear power stations that we need so desperately.

And why I now work for a French Phamaceutical company that has bought out the British company I started with because their profits were too modest albeit solid!!

Sorry guys but in my limited experience of working in the UK, Russia, USA, Australia and France we really do not have a chance as our *ankers run the UK while pragmatic businessmen and technically qualified people (sometimes engineers) are responsible for other countries businesses.
 
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I've found this thread fascinating, not only because of its content but also because it's clear that many keen boaters, and boat owners are engineers of one kind or another!

Amazing how the joys of water craft have driven us all to have, or use boats! (Yes, I'm a qualified mechanical engineer too, with years of practical experience rebuilding old cars and hanging round scrapyards. This subject has bothered me for years - Germany has it right, "Herr Doktor Engineer").

I wonder if it's not because in large part boats are so inherently maintenance intensive that it makes sense that owners are likely to be people who can truly understand them, and fix them i.e. practical people with some kind of engineering background.

Engineers can own them because they can fix them themselves, despite lower wages, which enables them to rub shoulders with the well off owners from other professions who are completely hopeless practically, and pay to have technical work carried out e.g light bulb renewal, new fuses, engine servicing (how difficult is an oil and filter change, I ask you?)
 
Trundlebug said:
I've found this thread fascinating, not only because of its content but also because it's clear that many keen boaters, and boat owners are engineers of one kind or another!


Naa!! Most boatowners are stupid inept idiots. The reason there are loadsa gingerbeers on here is that they are an argumentative bunch of opinionated barstewards.
Try asking how many engineers have Bavarias..... now that would be interesting!
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It's not just that. Speaking personally, I enjoy tinkering with the boat every bit as much as I enjoy sailing it (maybe more, if I'm honest)! My first love was cars, but the legislative framework that gave us the likes of Chapman, Costin, Duckworth, Wheeler, Murray, Jordan et al is now long gone and modifying cars (legally) is something of a dying art. (and no, I'm NOT talking about painting them whacky colours, sticking little LEDs all over them and fitting a stereo that can draw enough power to stall the engine when you turn it up)!

Boats are (for now) the way cars were 50 years ago. If I wake up one morning and decide to double the engine size / change the rig / cut it in half and add another 3' to it, I can do all that and put to sea. If I get it wrong, I drown! A nice simple self-policing system that has worked well since the dawn of boating, many thousands of years ago. Of course, the RCD is starting to erode at these freedoms and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before boats will be like cars today and we won't even be allowed to so much as replace a cleat without some kind of ministry test, but while it lasts, I find it a great outlet for any creative skills I might have.
 
Avocet, over here were it is impossible to change much on cars. (built a road going mid-engined from scratch in the 70s in UK) The home built boat regs have been relaxed about 4 yrs ago. Up to 25mtr (yes) you sign a bit of paper that you are responsible and they give you the reg. No comercial use and limits on how far offshore, but no application of the RCD as long as you keep it for 5 yrs.
A
 
Interesting thread here!

I always liked this definition -
Engineer: You have technology; old and tested, current, and cutting edge, and you have society; the general population which uses this technology. The Engineer operates in the interface.

Field Serivce Engineer (1 year), Electronic Design Engineer (2 years), Reliability Engineer (4 years), Instrumentation Engineer (5years & ongoing).

Bought my first boat last September - just love that learning curve - pass the 22mm ring spanner please!

cimo
 
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