Call yourself an engineer?

Once upon a time we had to renew some metalistic traction pads (metal rubber sandwich type thingies) which had to be pre-loaded (squeezed up) to fit into a gap. Now then, our new fully qualified Engineer with his brand new degree and fresh from the factory had this equation, which when completed told us that the pad had to have a force of 25 tons to squeeze it enough so it could be dropped into the gap. That's all well and good but how do you keep this 25 tons applied while the pad is dropped into the gap? Our Engineer did not have an equations for that, so the Fitter give the pad to the Apprentice and told him to grind a chamfer on each side and then the Fitter brayed the pad into place with a 14lb hammer. Our Engineer learned a very valuable lesson that day that theory and practibilty are two wildly different things. No disrespect to the guy, he is now high up with the railway division of Lloyds of London and the Fitter is still a Fitter and the Apprentice is now a Train Driver.
 
Sharkbait said:
Once upon a time we had to renew some metalistic traction pads (metal rubber sandwich type thingies) which had to be pre-loaded (squeezed up) to fit into a gap. Now then, our new fully qualified Engineer with his brand new degree and fresh from the factory had this equation, which when completed told us that the pad had to have a force of 25 tons to squeeze it enough so it could be dropped into the gap. That's all well and good but how do you keep this 25 tons applied while the pad is dropped into the gap? Our Engineer did not have an equations for that, so the Fitter give the pad to the Apprentice and told him to grind a chamfer on each side and then the Fitter brayed the pad into place with a 14lb hammer. Our Engineer learned a very valuable lesson that day that theory and practibilty are two wildly different things. No disrespect to the guy, he is now high up with the railway division of Lloyds of London and the Fitter is still a Fitter and the Apprentice is now a Train Driver.
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Excellent!... Applied Engineering...:D
 
Jon711, the person you describe (PLC) I would expect to be a technician, HNC perhaps HND qualified. Wouldn't expect it to need a graduate who would have more theoretical knowledge and less practical knowledge than needed for the job.
The people designing engines will likely be professionally qualified mechanical engineers and may be referred to as design engineers. Nowadays a lot of prototype work is done virtually using a variety of software by the aforementioned engineers. Production/manufacturing engineers will design the manufacturing process, again I would expect these people to be graduates.
Any real prototypes will have the parts made by tradesmen (in my day in the toolroom) to the specifications provided by the engineers. The engineers may wish to build and test the prototypes themselves but are more likely to leave this to tradesmen and/or technicians. Any problems with the design or manufacturing process found in prototype testing will be sorted out by the engineers.
After the design of the engine and manufacturing process is completed the engines may well be built in some form of production line by unskilled and/or semi skilled labour. Part of the design of the manufacturing process is likely to be making it as unskilled and foolproof as possible.
All this has to be done with maximising profit safely foremost.
 
Scientists have ideas
Engineers turn those idea into working products
Mechanics keep the products working

None of the above are mutually exclusive of course - many can (and do) do them all.

You do not need any qualifications at all to call yourself an engineer, any more than you do to call your self an accountant. You do need qualifications to call yourself a Chartered Accountant but there is no single equivalent Charter in the engineering world.

An engineer is defined by what he does, not what exams he's passed - which doesn't mean that any engineer who has no qualifications is good or that one who does have some is bad of course, and vice versa.
 
Bloody hell! That could have been me, but I was 15 when I rebuilt the motorcycle engine, then raced it!
 
I worked as an engineer in the days when computers were not available to deskill people . Nowadays they shorten the process but don't give the user full understanding of how the answer was arrived at since it was conceived by someone else and only tested with in certain parameters
A lot of calculationsin my day had to be done manually albeit with a slide rule but more significantly by trial and error . In doing so some times gut feel based on common sense and experience won the day when ridiculous answers arrived . Not to say that when they arrived computers were not used but to the experienced user they are only one tool in the box
Often the results were subject to test to prove the result either in full scale or as in most cases by using a scale model . Just because a computer arrives at one answer does not means it is true in the real world . rubbish in = rubbish out
 
Hum, I worked in various jobs. Built trailers, learned a lot about structures. Moved on to aircraft maintanance, could have added LAME after my name ( Licenced Aircraft Maintananced Engineer) Moved abroad, designed solar systems, took on design and construction jobs that nobody else wanted. Designed and built a few bridges (small) am I an engineer, not. Practical tech guy.. yes. If asked what I do, well, I say ' Sort of Engineer". Apart from the time when I spun some dinner guests about how I sorted out ' other peoples wars' i.e. mercenary. Best fun for years, esp. for the others on the table who knew me better. ' Uh, you mean you actually shoot people?' ' Only the bad ones'
I left the event with various people chocking in their soup.

A
 
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parsifal said:
What qualifies someone to describe themself as 'engineer'?

Years of theoretical and practical training at recocgnised institutions, a first-class degree, membership of a chartered institute, a great deal of relevant practical experience, design skills, an open mind, a willingness to learn and to keep up to date, communications skills, respect for the clients wishes and the equipment being designed or worked on etc.?

I reckon all of these are essential.

Or should people with lesser qualifications, such as mechanics or technicians, be entitled to call themselves engineeers if they want to?

What do others think?
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On the subject of "sales engineers" I have known dozens mainly involved selling very expensive construction lifting equipment. Most of them were not able to tell the difference between a hookblock and a counter weight. But they always seemed to get more attention and financial reward than the qualified engineers who designed them. I learnt very early in my career that having the right charisma and being able to act the part was more rewarding than inventing or fixing things. Quite often the man with the shop makes more money selling something than the person who invested in making it in the first place. Is that because historically our routes are embedded as a trading nation.
 
Sharkbait said:
Once upon a time we had to renew some metalistic traction pads (metal rubber sandwich type thingies) which had to be pre-loaded (squeezed up) to fit into a gap. Now then, our new fully qualified Engineer with his brand new degree and fresh from the factory had this equation, which when completed told us that the pad had to have a force of 25 tons to squeeze it enough so it could be dropped into the gap. That's all well and good but how do you keep this 25 tons applied while the pad is dropped into the gap? Our Engineer did not have an equations for that, so the Fitter give the pad to the Apprentice and told him to grind a chamfer on each side and then the Fitter brayed the pad into place with a 14lb hammer. Our Engineer learned a very valuable lesson that day that theory and practibilty are two wildly different things. No disrespect to the guy, he is now high up with the railway division of Lloyds of London and the Fitter is still a Fitter and the Apprentice is now a Train Driver.
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I think that could be a good example of one of the big problems that has dogged engineering in this country for many years. The sort of "adversarial" thing between shop floor and white collar. I wish I'd had a quid for every tale I've heard from the shop floor about how "old so-and-so taught that jumped-up young engineer a thing or two about "real" engineering"!

Of course, it works both ways too. I worked at a car company some years ago, as a shiny new graduate, and was asked to investigate a spate of vehicles reporting unusually rapid and uneven tyre wear. On my way to the service department to inspect one, I walked through the machine shop and just happened to notice the jig used for welding up part of the front suspension system with an odd-looking modification that turned out to be a ground-down washer tacked to it. It turned out that someone on chassis-build had got fed up having to press the components together so he went to see his mate in the machine shop and got him to modify the jig so the mating parts weren't such a tight fit!

It's by no means an isolated example. There are often cases where someone sets out to "solve" a problem without having the "bigger picture" in mind and can cock-up a dozen other things in doing so!

In the first example, the young engineer gave a spectacularly useless bit of information when it came to fitting the pad, but for some reason, there didn't seem to have been any dialogue. In that instance, the "solution" appeared to work. In the one I quoted, it didn't. In both cases, better communication between shop floor and drawing office might have yielded a more elegant (and permanent) solution.
 
IMHO the problem lies with the lack of a organisation to police the use of the title engineer, in the way of the GMC prevents someone calling themself a doctor. Until that is resolved, engineers will not get the respect they deserve, and be recognised in society as an equal to a doctor, lawyer, etc.
 
Robert stephenson was inventing a self propelled Tar Boiler and had to settle for a locomotive he named Rocket cos he just cuoldn't get it right. The guage was meant to be 5' but he cocked up one of the journals while machining it and had to saw 3 1/2" off the end of the axel, thats how we have the standard guage of 4' 8 1/2"
 
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Jason, you are an ignoramus. The tool room staff are the elite of all mechanical engineering craftsmen. I have known many and still count some amongst my friends.

I came from a craft apprenticeship in marine engineering and am now a full member of the Institution of mechanical engineers. In a lifetime of working in industry and research, I NEVER attained the class of workmanship required for entry into the toolroom wherever I worked. Mind you, none of them had the qualifications to become a Chartered Engineer either.

As to Fred Dibnah.....he was a national treasure, and enthusiast for carving and operating large chunks of hot or cold metal. I don't know if he was a craftsman, I neer saw anything he made, but he enriched our lives with the programmes he made and that should be enough recognition for anyone.
 
Topcat47 said:
As to Fred Dibnah.....he was a national treasure, and enthusiast for carving and operating large chunks of hot or cold metal. I don't know if he was a craftsman, I neer saw anything he made, but he enriched our lives with the programmes he made and that should be enough recognition for anyone.
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Fred Dibnah MBE served his time as a joiner.
 
jason -and the arguenauts said:
And writing as a chap with a couple of degrees, the engineers that most impressed me were the one who had done apprenticeships and tech college and could mostly solve any practical problem I gave them. What bits of paper they had I dont know except for one, a brilliant guy, who I know for sure had none!
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The guy who impressed me most had been chief engineer on a nuclear sub. I was working in a scientific company, and one of our product lines were vessels that were used to grow bugs in test or production scale for pharmaceutical companies to make bio products, and pretty complex bits of kit, though very basic engineering when you looked at them in detail one part at a time..

As he said, when on a sub, you couldn't pop down to a local store to buy a required part, so you made do with what you had at hand. There was almost nothing he couldn't fix, or find a solution to.

His maths, physics, chemistry, etc knowledge was superb, as was his mechanical bent.

Given his background, sort of to be expected, but it was a joy to work with him.
 
The English language

Ah the English language the older I get the more I realise that it is a moveable feast.
When I was young I called myself a technician my dad was amechanic. I had a piece of paper that said so. An engineer was an exalted soul with a university degree in engineering. Mechancal, civil, electrical or electronic.
Some years later I got a piece of paper that called me an aircraft engineer. I realised my definition of engineer had changed. Still no degree but now I are one.

The only way we can use the english language with precision is to add descriptive words to the title engineer. ie degreed engineer, tradesman engineer or amateur engineer maybe even genetic engineer.

We have a show on TV on Friday nights. One of the popular pieces is a lady who is well qualified in words meanings and origins. She will never say what is correct about a word or phrase meaning. She can tell you the history and comment on current usage but never this is right or this is wrong.
Similarly the origins of the Oxford dictionary. Any place that a word was used in print in any spelling was a good enough reason to include that option.So the dictionary tried to list all the ways a word has been used and its variety of spellings.

Anyone therefor who tries to define the meaning of a word or specify its spelling as correct is simply pushing against the history of our language. I believe the French try to control their language but are having a losing battle.
"So call yourself an Engineer" can mean anything that suits the person doing so. The reader will have to figure out by questioning just what he really means. ie qualifications skills experience or knowledge.

So give up trying to be precise. olewill
 
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