Cahrging my Batteries?? (Long + several pics)

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You say you have a Sterling battery monitor but there are no pictures of the shunts or descriptions of their position. Since some equipment is connected direct to the battery the Ah reading is probably defeated.

Assuming the picture is the starter and the Domestic under the aft cabin The wiring is in my view terrible.

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Neil,

You've given me some food for thought, worried me, (which isnt a bad thing), lost me completely in some areas.

I thought the monitor shunt was built into the monitor... perhaps not. There is only the electric loo, and the bilge pump, connected directly to the batteries .. given the amount each is used, I would guess it is fairly minimal in terms of Ah.

If the wiring is terrible, I'll have to get it looked at.

I'm not sure where the battery fuses are - I'll have a look... I hope there are some!!!

The alternator provides around 30 to 35A when the monitor shows the discharge as more than about 35A - it reduces to only a few amps when it shows discharged around 20A - this could be because the monitor isnt zeroed properly, or it may not be.

A second alternator sounds like an expensive job which, given other things I need to buy, may have to wait.

The battery at the front of the boat runs the bowthruster, (not often), and the inverter, (often) .. this usually shows around 12.7 -12.8v after charging, but falls quickly to 12.2v -12.4v under the load of even just a laptop. It was new last August, but I think I flattened it on one occasion by having it run the water heater and battery charger, (still turned on when shorepower disconnected - a crazy system!).

Anyway, it looks like a bit of an overhaul is on the cards and I guess I'm glad I asked the question.

Thanks for taking the time to give me a low down.

Richard
 
Here is some ID work which is duplication and confirmation for some items and my comments.
1) The Valeo Alt looks to be the same as the one which was standard on my Volvo D2-55. It has a 60A rating.
2) The yellow wire is a voltage sense for the regulator and definitely should be removed from the red B+ terminal and extended to the +ve of your service batteries. This is a quick and easy first step. If there is a diode splitter this is even more important. But since you have measured much the same voltage at the Alt terminals as at the batteries I don't think there is a splitter. But that begs the question as to how the 3 banks are isolated. Anyway, the yellow wire allows the Alt to "see" the voltage at the battery and if there is any voltage drop in the circuit between the Alt and the batteries the regulator will increase the Alt output to ensure it is correct at the end of the yellow wire.
3) Your Alt internal regulator is clearly a 13.6v unit. If you can get it replaced by a 14v+ version that could be your easiest solution short term. I like the logic of the diode in the sense (yellow) wire to fool the regulator into increasing its output by .6v but I am a little worried about the polarity suggested. I'm thinking the anode should be at the battery end so let's get more input on that.
4) My view is to measure voltage right at the source or load so that you are taking all cabling into account. e.g. Measure Alt o/p at the alt red B+ and black (to block) wires, then between red and engine block. The result should be exactly the same unless there is a poor connection or cable to the block from the Alt. I noticed that the black cable from the Alt to the block is smaller than the B+ but as its run is shorter it is probably still OK.
5) The two small boxes in the engine room are most likely relays to switch heavy current loads or to reduce wiring runs for moderate to heavy loads. You need to follow the wiring to know what they service and what controls them. More simply, listen to (or feel) the relays when someone else is switching on your various electrical items. Could be autopilot, deck lights, horn etc.
6) The last pix is the engine electric control system. It has relays and other gadgets for Ignition, pre-heat, warning light control etc. It looks like it is a Volvo system, right?
7) You mentioned using the inverter for your PC. My experience is that the PC was the second single largest consumer after the fridge and because both my wife and I each had one they were the largest consumer, particularly at anchor in the evenings or poor days when they were used a lot. You don't say how large your inverter is but I am assuming it is about 1000W or more given the size of the battery. If so its use for your PC is inefficient, they can consume 1-2A even if there is no load connected. I suggest you get a small 12V-19V DC-DC converter which is sold for running a PC from a cigarette lighter or in a plane. They usually have a selection of connectors and a selectable output voltage so you can match it to your laptop. Check the label on your laptop power pack to see the voltage required. You will probably need a unit capable of 75W, sometimes they are rated higher because they have to run the PC as well as charge the battery.

If you need help with electrics in Malta I can point you to Mark Randon of "Boats-n-Sails" in Ta Xbiex (near Msida). He sells a range of electrical items (including Sterling but I would rather see you go the Balmar route if you are making major changes), batteries, cable, connectors etc. In 05/06 he sourced solar panels for me and a couple of replacement batteries as well as some other misc bits and pieces. I found him to be very responsive, honest and knowledgable. Tel: 21 315875

To close, my advice is to invest in solar if you are going to be in the Med for a few seasons. It is a serious capital outlay but very quiet, works for free for many hours a day and is low maintenance. I started with 110W then added 128W so that I could quietly soak up 14A of charge current on a fine day.
Ray
 
I dont see a lot wrong with your wiring, it looks fairly clean and in good condition, a clean never goes amiss though.
First thing I would do before anything else, is move the yellow sensing wire to your positive on the domestic batteries, very simple to do, then check the voltages, it may well be just as simple as that and solve your problems.
Next the diode trick, forces the alternator to raise it's output voltage.
Then you can decide whether to go the alternator booster route, I did, but my alternator didnt have a sensing wire.
I would go for a proper 3 stage alternator regulator. Balmar, adverc, sterling.
The sterling monitor is an excellent tool. But check votages at your battery terminals as suggested, with a digital meter.
You may well have to consider a larger output alternator, at a later date, to minimise ebngine running hours for charging.
I also second the post about adding 120 watts or so of solar, but I know it is expensive, but fit them before you get to Turkey!! They are horrendously expensive there.
 
You've got some good advice here, and one or two things I don't quite agree with.

I would worry about fitting a 14.4v simple regulator, because if you have a long engine running period, you'd risk losing quite a bit of battery water once the batteries being sensed reached full charge. As a short term means of reducing engine charge time, maybe. Much better the intelligent charger route - about £150 or so.

Your lower battery voltages at the bow thruster bank are probably due to a larger consumption (laptop) and may be exaggerated by a longer charge wire from the alternator (higher resitance lowering the charge voltage at the battery compared to the other banks). Either way, balancing the charge to the bow and domestic bank, whichever type pf regulator you use, will be an issue to be handled. Many ways of doing this, but it's a second stage problem. Temporarily, you can always run the invertor off the domestic bank for some periods of time. Damage done to the battery in the past? Possible, but not very likely if they're recent deep cycle batteries.

Tracing the charging/supply wires shouldn't be too difficult since they're all thick jobs.

Your shunt for ampere sensing has to be capable of taking the max possible output from the batteries - 120a or so! So it's a massive short bar (a few cm long) with small sensing line attachment nuts/screws, and large spade or similar terminals each end. Usually all batteries connect their earths to one end, and the other end goes to a common earth bus for all services.

Oh, and while the wiring does look a little random (it obviously 'just grew', like Topsy. Probably when the bow thruster bank and the electric loos were fitted) I wouldn't put that as a priority in sorting things out. As long as all the high amperage stuff is well supported, kept clear of any possible chafe with earthed items, and has well greased and clean connections, it should be fine.

Happy hunting!
 
Sound advice here. Before we set off on our trip to the Med, I wanted to make sure that as far as possible, I knew every inch of the boat, where every component was, what it did and possibly how to fix it. I discussed what we needed with the electrician / electronics expert I used to sort out our system and worked with him so that I knew where all the wires went and what they did. The same went for the engineer. Frankly, I would have felt very uncomfortable setting off on the trip, without that level of knowledge. Re Richard's immediate problem, we fitted an Adverc system ( having had the alternator overhauled) and thus far it has been excellent, wth the batteries in good shape. We have two batteries in the domestic bank, a dedicated start battery (Optima) and a separate battery for the fridge/ windlass, All charged through the same system. The BEP battery monitor (Merlin) has been well worth the money, providing good information about the battery health, charge rates etc. Especially usful if you are trying to balance input from the solar array against drain from the fridge or other systems.
 
Re: Charging my Batteries?? (Long + several pics)

Another 2pennyworth... Yes, lots of good advice here. Most boats tend to get additions and modifications over the years, and I guess yours looks better than some I've seen.

The main thing is to try to understand what has been done, and why. It would be a good thing to find the shunt for the meter, just to be certain as to whether you can trust what it tells you (or not)... It could be either in the +ve or the -ve lead of the battery (depending upon type/design), should be pretty much adjacent to the relevant battery terminal, so that all consumption (or charging) goes through it.

In the absense of a separate fuse for the domestic battery bank (I think you said that was what it was monitoring), I've found that a shunt works pretty much like a fuse under heavy overload conditions ;~(

Regarding a regulator, IIRC both the Stirling and Adverc controllers act like boosters, and there has been concern expressed about their not being able to *reduce* charging below that provided by the 'native' alternator regulator (which remains fitted) once the batteries are fully charged.

Accordingly, I think you are in good shape here, as the existing regulator is clearly not going to overcharge the batteries by itself, so by fitting an add-on smart charge booster (Stirling, Adverc or whatever) you should get the advantage of higher charge voltage (and hence current) due to the booster, with a sensible fallback to the existing regulator once the batteries are charged, or in the event of failure of the boost controller. This is also (probably) the simplest, and most cost effective way forwards for you, as it should disturb little or nothing of the existing wiring.

I agree about the benefits of fitting an additional high power alternator and controller, but that will add a lot of additional complication, and you will absolutely need to sort out what you have first... Personally, in your position, I would go for the solar, as it is easier to live with than engine charging all the time.

Inverter: 12.93v at battery, 13.4v at monitor

I think this reflects the fact that you are putting charge into that battery, but via a long set of wires, which is causing a significant voltage drop over their length. Maybe you were also drawing current via the inverter (your conputer?) at the time you measured it - in any event, it doesn't look anywhere near fully charged, or it is maybe getting (or has got) into bad shape (a bad cell maybe), so the terminal voltage never really gets there - this could be affecting the charge available to the rest of your setup! I think I would reserve that battery for the bowthruster (which will ensure it gets properly charged between uses), and move the inverter to the domestics (which you should be able to monitor more closely, and eventually charge more efficiently). If that windlass battery never reaches a good "charged" voltage (once things are sorted out), then it needs replacing. (You could try isolating it now, and seeing if your charging volts for the rest of the system improve - if they do, then get it tested - it could be that it warrants immediate replacement).

So in short, a good way forwards would be to consider getting a charge booster fitted, but take your time, and try to understand what all of your wiring is up to - it will pay dividends in the end.
 
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You've got some good advice here, and one or two things I don't quite agree with.

I would worry about fitting a 14.4v simple regulator, because if you have a long engine running period, you'd risk losing quite a bit of battery water once the batteries being sensed reached full charge. As a short term means of reducing engine charge time, maybe. Much better the intelligent charger route - about £150 or so.


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I have to ask since all modern cars charge at 14.2-14.4 why if this is a problem arn't there far more cars with duff batteries?
The answer is because it isnt a problem. modern alternators are designed to run at that voltage and battery technonlogy has come a long way since the days of 13.8v max charge......

The simpest and easiest way to run any system that doesnt have a diode splitter is with a 14+v regulator. I have been doing it for years, you normally have to put in less water than you do when running one of the "advanced" alternator boosters so for me it was the way to go.



Julian
 
You found that smart chargers caused more water loss than a simple 14.4v regulator? Sensed at the battery? That surprises me.

I have assumed that Richard has conventional wet lead acid batteries. Also, he is working in a warm environment - the Mediterranean. Charging at 14.4v will be fine until the batteries reach about 80% charge; at that stage the amperage will start to drop, and gassing will start. Gassing is normal, but it will slowly increase, becoming quite vigourous once the batteries reach 98% charge.

Gassing is lost water . . . If you're five hours or more under motor, you'll lose water far more quickly at 14.4v than you will at 13.6v. That's my worry.

Incidentally, my earliest source of information for all these matters was Bill Darden's excellent site, followed by lots of DIY - which is never so reliable! See http://www.batteryfaq.org/ . Section 9 covers battery charging, all types and all methods.

For shorter periods of engine running (as in cars) no problem.
 
I really don't think there is enough information in your pictures to justify a proper analysis of your system. Many people are offering what they believe are helpful guesses - but may not be appropriate.

In my opinion you either (a) need to read enough to become sufficiently expert to understand your own system and draw a proper wiring diagram of it - this should be well within your competence, if you have the will to do it; or (b) need to get someone who does understand electrics to produce the wiring diagram for you, and explain how everything works.

Only at that stage will you be in a position to make sense of the meter readings, and decide what changes or investments make sense.

For example, some people have suggested moving the yellow wire to the battery - but perhaps it is not on the battery for a good reason.

Batteries can produce enormous currents and start fires very easily, even if they don't electrocute people.
 
Just about any alternator that is under 7years old will charge ate 14.2. If you add a "Smart" system to this then your voltage when the system switches of is.............14.2 as the internal regulator of the alternator takes over.
All the "smart" systems do with the exception of Adverc is to raise the charge voltage to 14.8 for a preset time regrdless of battery condition hence more water loss.

Julian
 
Richard, I am interested in this thread as I have similar problem but havent the time or the inclination to work through all the details, I'm afraid !

My concern is that the domestic battery voltage is down to about 11.5 after 100Ah discharge on the monitor. WHen we first got the boat, it was more like 180-200Ah from a 400 Ah battery bank.

Before working through all the wiring and components, I think its best to eliminate the batteries themselves. I plan to charge them, then disconnect them all to take a measurement of each one. I am concerned that one battery may be dragging the voltage down on its own, or even that they are all cream crackered.

If you post this on the MOA forum, I am sure Neil would point you to his story about sulphation too. Also, others might be able to help.
 
How old are the batteries?
Batteries loose capacity with use and age.
It is possible that your batteries have lost that ammount.
BTW off load 11.5 is to low you should aim to discharge only down to about 12.1v which is about as low as you should go, this off load equates to roughly a 50% discharge depending on battery type.


Julian
 
Understood, Julian. Dont know their age - we have only had the boat since March and havent had a chance to look closely at them since the problem started - which was after we left the baot on the mooring for a week with some load turned on. Following weekend they were completely discharged, and I havent been able to 'recover' them yet.

On the monitor, we are using about 100AH before getting below 12v out of a 400AH spec battery bank.
 
Richard, it looks as thought the monitor has been incorrectly wired as it is not reading voltages actually present, so let's ignore those readings for now.

It looks very much as though your inverter battery is being fed (incorrectly) through an extra splitting diode causing it to be 0.6V too low. I have mentioned the same to you in an earlier post.

The other voltages are too low and they might be due to splitting diodes (they cause this problem and alternator boosters e.g. Adverc and Sterling are one solution) or it might just be that you are not running the engine long enough.

I think that you need a bit of self-study on the bench. Recently I posted the link to an electrical educational toy that might help, for another poster, from Toys R Us. There is a limit to what one can sensibly do by remote control, like this...not wishing to be unhelpful, as you know, but it isn't easy and would take pages of written material, some of which I have already posted to you about the same installation.

My advice is keep the batteries OK with the genny and shore power until you get to your winter berth and then make it a priority to take a simple course in electrics via distance learning, books, or an educational toy to get to the bottom of it in the winter.

David

PS - arrived in Gib this morning.
 
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Richard, I am interested in this thread as I have similar problem but havent the time or the inclination to work through all the details, I'm afraid !

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It's a tricky subject and it's taken me a couple of months to get my head round how to present a question in a reasonable way = even now it seems there wasnt enough info, but we've got to the bottom of why I'm only getting 13.6v max out of the alternator.

I can understand you not having the time or inclination. You know it's only going to open a can of worms!

It would be interesting to know if you also have a Valeo Alternator, and if it only produces 13.6V when the big red wire is measured?

Having decided to ask here first, I'm now thinking of how to present the question to Grenville et al on MOA, whilst incorporating some of the suggestions here - perhaps I could just refer to the thread.

Dont forget to keep looking on ebay for a course computer - I have seen them quite regularly, (not necessarily often), searching for either autohelm or raymarine, (neither search produces long lists, so it's fairly quick to do).

Richard
 
I have sent my course computer to Raymarine, and chased them up today as I want to refit it next weekend in readiness for the Cherbourg trip. If I get to do this, while I am on board I will measure the voltage coming out the alternator, and drop you a line.
 
Thanks. Your response took me back to the books, and you're right, many modern lead acid batteries don't gas significantly at 14v - unless they're running at 30degrees C or higher. Although I do note that different manufacturers of deep cycle batteries quote varying maintenance charge voltages for a given temperature.

I take your point about 'boosters', but I was under the misconception (?) that Sterling was also a 'controller' as well the Adverc, though their data sheets aren't very helpful.
 
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