Cahrging my Batteries?? (Long + several pics)

You say it's a tricky subject . . . so presumably you haven't dealt with DC circuits very much. And Lemain's reference to some basic terminology to help implies this too . . .

Perhaps a good check of your DIY ability to solve this problem would be to look at an 'ideal' boat circuit, and see if you can make head or tail of it. Have a look at http://www.adverc.co.uk/technical/technical-boat.asp , which shows how your system could/should be wired. If this leaves you absolutely cold - there's some homework to be done. Worth it though, because it'll make you a lot more self reliant.

Forgive me if this is teaching grandma - eggs etc.

edit: remove the adverc box and all it's related wires to simplify things and look at your possible current system.
 
Have a look to see if there is a date stamp stamped into the case, could not be obvious, somthing like SA06 which is jan 06 fom the supplier that I use, or it could be 0106 If you can find this it may give a clue to the batteries age.

Julian
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the MOA forum

[/ QUOTE ]
Scuse my ignorance - ?

[/ QUOTE ] I couldnt possibly tell you - its a special place for owners of Moody yachts. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif but there again, englander is right on the money.

Its a superb website and forum, for which I know the webmaster who puts in a huge amount of effort. Its just a bit limited to a small handful of experts whereas on here, we are able to tap into a much wider pool of knowledge.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Have a look to see if there is a date stamp stamped into the case, could not be obvious, somthing like SA06 which is jan 06 fom the supplier that I use, or it could be 0106 If you can find this it may give a clue to the batteries age.

Julian

[/ QUOTE ] thanks again, this was going to be the first thing I check - when SWMBO gives me permission to take the bed apart for 5 minutes!

I suspect they are pre2005 when the previous owner had to give up using the boat due to illness, then we have used her extensively since April this year.
 
I chased a low charging problem for ages, even replaced a battery, until I discovered that the alternator mounting bolts were not tight as I went to remove the alternator to have it bench tested. couple of turns with a spanner and the problem fixed.

Biggest improvement to our charing was to swap the standard 60A alternator for a 120A one. Next biggest was a smart regulator. Do have to keep an eye on the battery water level though. top up once a season.
 
Just to be clear, one of the problems on boats is due to companies like Adverc showing dangerous systems like the to which jimbaeselman refers.

"demonstrate general installation requirements, and should not be used for engineering purposes"

1. There are no fuses in the whole thing. No high power fuses and no small fuses on sense wires.

2. The second diagram has charging circuits connected after the 1 both 2 off switch. This mean in the off switch position the electronics could see high voltages and die. Most regulators require a battery in the circuit.

3. The single sense point on the service battery 2 will mean that the starter battery will receive excessive and continuous over voltage in a cruising situation.

The good points:
1. They actually have a isolator on the engine battery
2. They know how to wire a Multi-battery bank

That is not the way to learn good practice. That is the way to sell equipment. If the diagrams/systems were done properly it would put of most people from attempting it. Also what is common practice in an unregulated environment does not mean it is correct and safe. Boats go on fire. I managed to set one on fire myself by simply disturbing a wiring loom on a huge boat.

Maybe I am a bit sensitive but when you need to fight a fire on a £2m boat because it was fitted out with no fuses and under sized wires you learn the lesson quickly.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The inverter battery is in the forecabin, the engine, (alternator), is under the center cockpit, and the engine/domestic batteries are under the aft cabin bunk.


[/ QUOTE ]
Richard - as an isolated part of this, once you have solved the main charging problem - which for my 2 pence worth, I would add a Sterling or Adverc booster, I might even upgrade the alternator, - inwhich case you may want to look at a complete Balmar set up. I also replaced all my alternator to battery wiring as it was not heavy enough for a 100 amp alternator - which I intend to get in the next couple of years.

Charging the bow battery. I have installed a Sterling Battery to Battery charger, which is connected to my engine battery. When the engine battery exceeds 13.5 volts, it starts charging the bow battery, so no switching on and off required. It is also important to get the correct size of cable to the bow battery. This needs to be at least 20-25mm cable to combat the voltage drop,(which you noted) otherwise the bow battery will never really charge properly. This is a really easy bit of kit to install, the hardest part being to run the new cables - if you need heavier ones.

It really is worth spending some time trying to understand the basic concepts of this. I keep learning from the guys on this forum.

Good luck!
 
Richard - your boat is about the same age as mine. I probably have the same 50 amp alternator on a volvo 2003T.

My alternator - before installing a Sterling unit, would never bring the voltages above 13.6 volts no matter how hard I charged. I have a 1, 2 both battery switch, so no loss of voltage here, as with a splitting diode. I think it is inherrent in these older alternators that they do not charge at 14.4 volts, and therefore must be boosted.

Once you start getting a real charge out of the alternator - the Sterling unit really punches out 45amps to start with, you may find that you over work the unit, and find it overheats, especially in the Med- also it is around 15 years old???. So get the advanced Stirling unit with alternator heat cut out perhaps. OR as a said earlier, look at the Balmar range which is more purpose built for yachts I believe.....
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just to be clear, one of the problems on boats is due to companies like Adverc showing dangerous systems like the to which jimbaeselman refers.
"demonstrate general installation requirements, and should not be used for engineering purposes"


[/ QUOTE ] I agree your point completely.

You'd probably also agree that a large number of boats built before about 1990 (give or take an inch) were delivered with battery/charging systems that were even less suitable than the adverc 'demo' setup.

But when one is on a steep learning curve, simplification is necessary . . . I'd missed your good point about the chargers on the downside of the 1/2/off switch though!
 
[ QUOTE ]
one of the problems on boats is due to companies like Adverc

[/ QUOTE ] Just to add a bit of balance, one could look at the 'smart' site: http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/controllers.html . Of course, they're selling voltage sensitive relays as a method of controlling charging, rather than using split charge diodes and multi stage alternator controllers.

That particular page I've linked to covers most of the issues about the development of smart charger techniques, and suggests they've been overtaken by modern alternators controlled at higher voltages (thanks parglena!) - of course, to go on and sell their own product. Though I have heard criticisms that voltage sensitive relays can go into a 'chattering' mode.

I think the whole site adds useful perspectives to Richards problem, particularly in the way its arguments start from 'do you want to change your alternator . . .'
 
I think you are being a little unfair about Adverc - what it actually says on the website is:
Note: The following schematics show typical applications of the ADVERC system. The diagrams are only intended to demonstrate general installation requirements, and should not be used for engineering purposes. Seek advice from ADVERC for specific installation details.

If you purchase an Adverc they supply full installation schematics (where to put their wires) and instructions to suit your boat. They stress you ask for advice and will help you all the way through the installation.

Have you ever spoken to any of them!
 
One thing to point out is that the Smartbank system is not a VCR as such. There is a lot of electronics that prevent relay "chatter".
I have a smartgauge and a smartbank advanced its set to turn off the charge to the starter battery once the volts reach 14.2, it will then reconnect when the charger drops back to float voltage 13.85 so that I dont overcharge the start battery when charging the domestics on a landline.
The only thing that is disconcerting to start with is that the batteries remain connected after the engine is off until SG senses a load on the domestic battery.

Julian
 
SmartGuage site is a laugh.

They miss the point why the regulators are getting higher. Most alternators are automotive in nature. The trend in cars is to use more and more electric motors. Their aim is to get rid of the fan belts and auxiliary drives completely. They need to reduce the wire copper content etc. They also have integrated power management.

But most use simple 3 wire regulators that regulate the voltage on a separate diode feed and not the actual output voltage. Since there is always a consumption of power the actual battery voltage is depressed due to the diode and wiring resistance.

However cars do not ever really discharge their batteries like what we do in boats.

In general the alternators I looked at recently had 14v and 14.2v regulators which give a nice 13.8v when using a reasonable load.

However, boats have a starter battery that does nothing else. So the full 14.2v can arrive at the battery terminals and gassing (Wet) or destruction (Gel) can occur in long motoring events.

Now add smart regulator sensed from the Domestic and wave good bye to the starter battery.

So they propose voltage and time and capacity sensitive charging by combining batteries with relays.

All wonderful, as you now have really only one bank while charging and so the yacht loads are seen by the alternator and no over voltage can occur. (Just like a car)

However cars are small. Boats are big and have distributed batteries. Unless your batteries are next door to each other these systems will not work. The voltage drop on the cables will put you back to the original problem of under 13.8v charging.

Then we have the multiple charging sources. Say 1 alternator, 1 voltage sensitive solar regulator, 1 wind turbine and voltage sensitive regulator. Then you can have voltage sensitive drains like a fridge that detects when charge is available. Dump relays that unload devices like inverters when the battery is low. Then you can have 2 house banks or a windlass bank. Put them together and you start getting cycling affects and lockout situations. The turbine will not charge because the voltage is just above 13.8v because of the solars but then the starter battery gets connected in. The voltage rises a bit more as the sun comes out and suddenly the fridge decides to go into full power mode. The solars can not supply that much power so the voltage falls and the Starter battery is disconnected. Then the Fridge finally sees too low voltage for boost mode and drops out. The voltage shoots up with no load and it starts again.

It all gets too complicated.

Analyse the problem: all this technology (Fails in a lighting strike) is there so that you do not need to worry. But what it ends up with is making more worry. You have absolutely no control when it fails.

If you can make sure there is enough diesel in the tank you can make sure you have the batteries switched correctly. It is not rocket science as long as you have a easy visible display of battery status.
 
Homework from Jim, plus what sound like good ideas, then they dont sound like good ideas, then neil seems to be suggesting asome switches which divert the charge to the battery which needs it, and no more, (i've probably misunderstood that neil).......

and I cant believe I spelt charging wrong on what has turned out to be a long thread!

I quite like/d the idea of a diode on the yellow sensing wire, (although I wouldnt yet know a diode if I fell over one), and, from the Smartguage site, it seems like a 10A with a heatsink would do the trick.

I think I'm going to have to live with what I've got, (very slow and expensive charging), until I get to Malta where I can trace all the wires to do with the charging and battery system, and draw a diagram.

I will also have access to electricians and suppliers who speak English, (I seemed to get by with Spanis and Portuguese, but Italian eludes me for the time being), along with time on shore power to understand things and get them right.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Richard
 
Richard, I hope you didn't think my earlier post was a bit 'arsey' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif - it certainly wasn't intended to be. I do think that you will get a lot of help from an electronics kit such as http://www.toysrus.co.uk/ProductImages.aspx?ProdId=399132

It will let you play around with meters, batteries, wires, bulbs, buzzers, and other bits of kit you have on board, allowing you to experiment in a safe and convenient environment. There is some directed study, too. Electricity is a major part of today's yachting especially for the liveaboard and I cannot over stress the point that you will get much more fun if you get to grips with it. Actually it really isn't very difficult - it is a matter of sitting down with the information and being determined to get on with it.

David
 
[ QUOTE ]
Richard, I hope you didn't think my earlier post was a bit 'arsey' /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif - it certainly wasn't intended to be. I do think that you will get a lot of help from an electronics kit such as http://www.toysrus.co.uk/ProductImages.aspx?ProdId=399132

[/ QUOTE ]

David

"Arsey? You?" seriously, it didnt even cross my mind.

I've actually got a few electronics kits from Maplins which I bought to help me get to grips with soldering, (circuit boards, LEDs, resistors, and so on), but they remain in the cupboard until I get determined.

I'm fairly sure that if I can get round to tracing wires, and drawing a diagram, I'll understand.... although the kit would not be a bad idea - not sure there is a toys r us where I am.

In fact, as it's been a very windy day (F5/6), and I've been stressing over the anchor holding, (several boats in the anchorage dragged), so I've decided to stop in tonight and dont have much to do, so I might make a start - perhaps cleaning up the battery terminals as I go.

Enjoy Gibraltar - presumably there is a reasonable wifi service there?

Richard
 
Richard, from the various discussions and posts so far, I'm not convinced that the penny will just drop after you have sketched the circuits - though that is an essential prerequisite, of course, to any fault finding.

I think you need to get a good understanding of Ohms Law (V=IR, I=V/R, R=V/I) and the other main equations W=IV, V=W/I, I=W/V and what those mean in practice. You also need to understand what a diode is and what it does both forward and backward.

I read post after post in these forums in which posters just don't understand this elementary stuff and they make whopping schoolboy howlers. There isn't time to correct them all so you'll find that those who do understand these things will often not contribute to a thread because it will involve a lot of boring and pointless arguments equivalent to debating whether water is heavier than air. Such debates are novel to start with but become increasingly boring in time and one does not like calling other posters 'mindless buffoons', 'total ignoramuses' and the such like /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

So, in your case, with your new (old) genny happily driving the mains charger at moorings and anchor, and shore power in marinas, you should be fine till the winter. Then, I suggest, you forget the Maplin projects as they won't teach you anything but buy a teaching kit of the sort I posted the link for (about £15, ISTR) which maybe could be sent to you from the UK? If you follow that for a couple of days and invest in a decent book on boat electrics 99% of it will fall into place then the stuff that doesn't make sense can be addressed here......but then we will be using the same terminology and you will find it much easier to follow what is being suggested by those who know something about the subject, and able to spot those who don't /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Richard, your wait till Malta plan is a must. Quite apart from limited solutions where you are, you need time to figure out what you have got and what you wan to change. Winter in Malta will be just the answer. I read the SmartCharge info and it is very good for education even if you don't "buy" their solution. Solarniel has some very good points about how their simple and sometimes attractive solution may/will not work in many cases unless starting from scratch.

I have been through all this and installed a Balmar alternator with separate smart controller as well as solar panels and a 3rd battery bank. It is not perfect and it is not the only answer. I am an electronics engineer (TV) of a certain age and I thought I knew a thing or two about ohms law and electrons but this low voltage high current stuff has caused me to think deep and learn a lot more about practical issues with so many variables.

The input from the various forumites has been great and whilst it is not all in agreement there is very little real argument or dissent. The big problem is neither you nor we know what you have in your system nor what you want to achieve so until we do I doubt that there will be any more clarity from these answers for a while. In the mean time don't be worried by the confusion. The clouds will clear.
Ray
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am an electronics engineer (TV) of a certain age and I thought I knew a thing or two about ohms law and electrons but this low voltage high current stuff has caused me to think deep and learn a lot more about practical issues

[/ QUOTE ]Ditto. Auto/marine electrics is a field all of its own. A few hundred millivolts is the difference between a battery taking 10A charge and 60A charge and can be accounted for by a short piece of cable. Your ohmmeter seems to read zero whatever you measure since the cables are like bus bars and the equipment itself is very low resistance.

I have found that the single most important ethos in boat electrics is:-

Nothing is "probably good enough" or "will do for now". It is either "job jobbed" or junk.
 
[ QUOTE ]
whilst it is not all in agreement there is very little real argument or dissent. The big problem is neither you nor we know what you have in your system nor what you want to achieve

[/ QUOTE ] Quite. Another angle on the problem is that there is no clear, easily available solution for 3 bank charging on a yacht unless you go for multiple alternators.

My mains charger is a lovely piece of kit - 3 output lines, each sensed, each acting as an independent charger for it's own battery bank, each line fused and with an isolating switch.

If only such a piece of kit existed to control alternator output . . .

In real life though, we start with legacy kit: 13.6v alternators, three way diodes, batteries scattered around the boat. Changing basics is pretty expensive, so compromises are needed, and counsels of perfection are ignored. I went for an alternator controller to lift from 13.6 to staged charging for the big domestics bank, accepting that over time the high amp starter and winch batteries may fry early (because I never remembered to isolate them . . .). they lasted three or four years, but at £70 to replacement cost it that wasn't an unacceptable solution. Much better than sacrificing life for expensive deep cycle batterys.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top