Cahrging my Batteries?? (Long + several pics)

For anyone interested, (and I hope this thread is good info for others, aswell as for me), this page is effectively Volvos instructions for fitting the Charging Distributor, which is obviously fitted to the back of the alternator. Looks like it provides the second B+ terminal so that 2 battery banks can be charged, along with some take offs for the rev counter.

IMG_0869.jpg


Here's the alternator to save looking back through the thread:

IMG_0723.jpg


In the short term, I think I would be happy with something which ramped the volts up to 14.4v or whatever.... after all, this is what you get out of a more modern alternator - if I'm understanding things correctly. I can replace water in the batteries and, apart from a long period of motoring, I can turn the engine off when the batteries are 90% charged - I watch the monitor like a hawk anyway, so it wouldnt require a change of habit.

Given the above, I cant see where the bowthruster/inverter third bank battery is getting its charge from - there are black and brown wires to the battery, which I have traced back to the front bathroom, but cant see where they come out in/near the engine bay, or the rear battery bay to get some charge..... I'll keep on with that.
 
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In the short term, I think I would be happy with something which ramped the volts up to 14.4v or whatever...

[/ QUOTE ]If you are planning to cruise in Rogue for several years, mostly at anchor or moorings, which I understood to be your plan, then I think that decision would be short sighted unless cash is tight, of course. You would be better off with a bigger alternator so why not buy the Balmar complete with Balmar controller keeping the original one as a spare? This way you can forget about the engine charging system and then concentrate on your strategy for solar/wind/generator. If you go out and buy an Adverc or Sterling booster you will still have to modify the existing alternator. Neither the Adverc nor the Sterling will work with an unmodified alternator and the mod involves splitting the alternator case and soldering a wire in place using a heavy soldering iron. You might need help to do that......in any case, with an alternator of that age you will want to change the bearings and that is going to cost a bit.

Remember that the Adverc and Sterling can only boost the volts, not the total power.
 
I was actually thinking of the diode on the sensing wire, with perhaps some kind of switch to manually switch it in and out.

I was only thinking of the very short term e.g. for a couple of months.

David,

I'll probably do nothing in the short term, other than run the engine for 6-8 hours a day until I get into a marina in Malta, when it will be shore power.... but I am interested in the upsides and the downsides of the options.

I probably posted the bit about 14.4v after the engine had been running for ages and, if there is a short term solution, which might require some manual intervention, I was up for it.

The chances of me finding a 10A diode in Syracusa are slim, even if I go looking for one and, once the issue is over for the summer, other priorities will come into play.

If I find that we are likely to be cruising next summer, the Balmar route may be cost effective, (looks like the best part of £1,000, even if self fitted), as, at present, I'm probably using the best part of 35 - 40 litres of fuel a week, just charging the batteries ... presumably, this could be divided by 4 or 5 with a good system, thus paying for itself in a very short time, (1 years use possibly).

I say "the Balmar route" without really knowing what it is .... they look like alternators and regulators with some kind of controller which reduces the voltage when the batteries are nearly full - which doesnt seem too dissimilar to the Adverc and Sterling stuff - but there must be more to it than this...



Having said that, I can use the same argument for spending about £10k on the boat <g>
 
There is a handy electronics supplier in Gzira/Msida near all the other chandleries and boat services. Try "Fabian Enterprises" 18-20 Msida Rd Gzira. They are very helpful.

The "Balmar solution" is an alternator without on-board regulator which is controlled by an external Balmar controller (MaxCharge 612). It has a 3 stage charge program (bulk, absorbtion, float) like the latest shore power battery chargers. You need to read up about these too, constant current followed by constant voltage to ensure full charge, but that is for later. Actually they have 12 steps in their cycle to manage the process. The controller senses battery voltage from a separate line to the +ve terminal on the battery (same as the yellow wire out of your Valeo Alt) and raises the alternator output to make up for losses in cables and diode splitter. For example, when I have 14.5V at the battery I have 15.3 at the Alt output.

I have no association with Balmar, I am just a happy customer who has seen their product work and it fits with the theory I understand and accept. A second feature is the ability to set a "start delay" of 45s then a ramp-up of 60s so that when starting the engine it is not loaded by the alternator, particularly useful when the domestic batt is low on charge and therefore the load on the alternator will be heavy. The 60s ramp-up means the load to the belt is gradual so stops slipping and therefore wear as well as more kind to the motor.

Lemain is on the money with the suggestion to keep the Valeo as a spare. That is what I have done and it is not hard to leave some of the original wiring so that the valeo can be returned to service by simply plug-n-play.

Jim's point is also well made in that we lack a viable multibank charger from engine alternators and solar cells. I think that the SmartCharge guys are right to plug the benefits of growing one large domestic bank rather than split into additional banks but it is not always possible to do that due to cable runs, space limitations and legacy systems.

Keep reading and learning. It is good to have something else to talk about other than the weather and anchors when you are having a beer with other cruisers. The down side is that ther are not enough of them with the TRUE KNOWLEDGE just anecdotal solutions/answers.
Ray
 
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I was actually thinking of the diode on the sensing wire, with perhaps some kind of switch to manually switch it in and out.

[/ QUOTE ] I see from an earlier post that you were attracted to this idea but where did it come from, and what is it supposed to do? I can't imagine why anyone would put a 10A diode, on a heatsink, on a sensing wire Besides, from the look of your photos you don't have a sensed system, all you seem to have is an alternator whose output is regulated to (I suspect) 14.4V at its output. I deduce this from your statement that the volts eventually rise to 14.4V. The voltage will be lower than that if the batteries are very flat....the volts will be clamped by the batteries until they have taken enough charge to let the volts rise. Incidentally, this would be the case even with a booster such as an Adverc or Sterling. I don't understand the diode idea, you'd need to tell me more before I could comment.

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I'll probably do nothing in the short term, other than run the engine for 6-8 hours a day until I get into a marina in Malta, when it will be shore power

[/ QUOTE ]How long (how many days) are you going to do that for? Do you know the risks of doing that, especially glazing the cylinders? You can end up with compression problems which result in poor starting, poor performance and poor economy. Usually you need to strip the engine down to resolve it. If you are going to buy a new genny, it would be better to buy one now.

Don't forget that draconian reductions in your power usage would be very helpful. Turn the laptop off, keep lights to a minimum, don't use the freezer or freezer setting, don't use the battery toilet, keep fan usage to a minimum.....

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If I find that we are likely to be cruising next summer, the Balmar route may be cost effective, (looks like the best part of £1,000, even if self fitted),

[/ QUOTE ]Whatever you do needs to be part of an integrated strategy. I don't generate any of my dc from the main engine; if we are at anchor in one place for three weeks the main engine is never run, not once. So I don't have a Balmar, it would be pointless. I have large solar panels and a decent diesel genset which drives the Mastervolt charger (80A). I run the genny for between one and two hours a day and this, with solar, makes enough electricity for water making, laptops (two off), TV/DVD, and everything else we need - it is not my policy to economise on electricity, I try to keep life on the boat as comfortable as life in a house which seems only fair on my wife since it is our home!

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I say "the Balmar route" without really knowing what it is .... they look like alternators and regulators with some kind of controller which reduces the voltage when the batteries are nearly full - which doesn't seem too dissimilar to the Adverc and Sterling stuff - but there must be more to it than this...

[/ QUOTE ] Balmar make marine grade (as opposed to automotive) alternators and controllers that control in the same way as quality mains chargers. You would need an alternator and a controller, that's all. Adverc and Sterling boosters can be made to do a similar job but you need diode splitters in the circuit and the alternator's integral regulator must be low enough to allow the end of charge volts to reduce to 13.3. For most installations (one diode drop = 0.6V) that implies a regulator of 13.9V but it seems that your is 14.4V (which is perfectly normal). If you fitted an Adverc or Sterling you would get an end of charge float voltage of 13.8V which is far too high for Mediterranean cruising if you are doing passages of more than six hours of so. You would have to add an extra diode and that would degrade the maximum output of the alternator, so you would have a poor system - and far from cheap!
 
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Balmar make marine grade (as opposed to automotive) alternators and controllers that control in the same way as quality mains chargers. You would need an alternator and a controller, that's all. Adverc and Sterling boosters can be made to do a similar job but you need diode splitters in the circuit and the alternator's integral regulator

[/ QUOTE ] You've probably done more homework that me on this, but I had slightly different conceptions . . . maybe wrong.

First, Alternators. ''The Balmar Solution' - Balmar sell (I'm told) very good marine alternators which do not have regulators fitted. Existing alternators can have their regulators bypassed (losing warranty) and may well not be so well marinised, but are significantly cheaper. Right or wrong?

Second, regulators. Balmar, Sterling, Adverc (and presumably others) sell single battery sensing regulators. Any one of these products could be used with any alternator to provide significant increases in charge rates when batteries are above 75% or so charge . . . am I right here?

Third, minimum volts. It has been said by several that if an alternator has an internal regulator and it's not bypassed, that the minimum output from the (external) regulator is not less than the internal regulator's output. I certainly wasn't aware that this was the case, and if it is so, then some regulator manufacturer's information is misleading. Action - speak to Adverc/Sterling/Balmar and ask if this is the case.

Fourth, another product advertised has various names - 'battery to battery charger', 'duo charge', and I'm aware of voltage sensitive relays/solenoids which may or may not work on similar principles. They're broadly advertised as the yotties gift for separated bank charging solutions. But we have heard some criticisms of relays . . . anyone know if these 'digital split charge solutions' are just relays in disguise? And if so, what strategies can be used to reduce their shortcomings (removing alternative charging circuits from their sense . . )

Incidentally, the low voltage drops presented by Richard suggest to me that his system has some sort of relay charging system fitted rather than a diode splitter. Maybe one of his little boxes - but we'll wait for the wire tracing excercise to check that!

Also incidentally - the 'diode in sensing circuit' idea (raised much earlier in the thread) was to raise the sensing circuit resistance, so that a higher voltage was output. Hmm.
 
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I was actually thinking of the diode on the sensing wire, with perhaps some kind of switch to manually switch it in and out.

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I see from an earlier post that you were attracted to this idea but where did it come from, and what is it supposed to do? I can't imagine why anyone would put a 10A diode, on a heatsink, on a sensing wire Besides, from the look of your photos you don't have a sensed system, all you seem to have is an alternator whose output is regulated to (I suspect) 14.4V at its output. I deduce this from your statement that the volts eventually rise to 14.4V. The voltage will be lower than that if the batteries are very flat....the volts will be clamped by the batteries until they have taken enough charge to let the volts rise. Incidentally, this would be the case even with a booster such as an Adverc or Sterling. I don't understand the diode idea, you'd need to tell me more before I could comment.

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From halcyon:

“Richard

In the old day (1970 / 80's ) 13.6 volt was the stanadard alternator reg voltage for cars.
Most replacement regulators to-day are 14.4 volt, hense talk to LSUK.
The other option is to try a diode in the yellow wire, this will put a volt drop in the signal, and the output will be increased by .5 / .7 volt. It is possible that the regulator is dual sensing, but not probable.
Is there a electronic chap around who can make up a lead with a diode in that will plug the diode anode into the big red terminal, after removing the yellow. The yellow then plugs into the diode cathode.”

I measured the voltage at the alternator and it is 13.6v, and the volts at the batteries never rise above 13.8v, (read at the monitor), which suggests that it is regulated to 13.6v. Not sure where I said 14.4v, but it would have been a typing/mental error.

The yellow wire is a sensing wire, according to Brian, and to the diagram.

I am assuming that, if I had, (or if I fitted), a modern alternator, it’s voltage would be 14.4v and the charging rate would be higher….. Brians’ solution, assuming it works, would merely raise the voltage to 14.4v, just like a modern alternator.

Not sure if the above information makes a difference to your way of thinking about this – I’m sure it’s not ideal, but a good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow, and all that, (I know I’ll regret saying that <g>).


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………………. Usually you need to strip the engine down to resolve it. If you are going to buy a new genny, it would be better to buy one now.

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point taken – if I can find one in Syracusa, and it’s not extortionate, (which Italy seems to be), I’ll seriously consider it.


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Don't forget that draconian reductions in your power usage would be very helpful. Turn the laptop off, keep lights to a minimum, don't use the freezer or freezer setting, don't use the battery toilet, keep fan usage to a minimum.....

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Laptop is off when not being used. Couldn’t use less lights. Freezer doesn’t freeze. Battery toilet has been removed, (due to it leaking “stuff” all over the place). No fans without shore power….. I don’t think I could use less, (I still think I use about 60Ah per day, and the fridge is the main culprit, as ever).

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Whatever you do needs to be part of an integrated strategy.

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A system similar to yours would be ideal, including watermaker and A/C and, with hindsight, I would have looked for a boat with all/most built in, and budgetted or fitting other stuff... I just didnt know what was involved in this cruising lark….. but I cant turn the clock back, and need to generate the money to build to something similar.

In the meantime I need to use the most cost effective short term solutions…. The diode on the sensing wire seems a good cheap short term solution, (how much are diodes), but I will listen to what you have to say about it.

The portable generator is obviously a good idea and the Honda 2Kw suitcase job looks ideal – but it’s the best part of £1,000, which could go towards either an internal generator, or one of the other solutions, (solar panels, Balmar, whatever).

On the Balmar stuff, the alternator seems to be about £500, and the controller about £300 so, which is the best part of £1,000 before fitting…. I haven’t worked out whether it’s a straightforward swap on the MD22l, nor how big an alternator, (70A, 110A, 150A….), I could fit.

I'm off to see if I can find a generator

Thanks again

Richard
 
Richard

I must admit I have not been following this thread after we moved into pages of hypothetical (?) faults , and similar solutions with no budget.
At the start we set of trying to find out what the alternator did, or did not do, what the charging system is, what was wrong, and how we could do a quick cheap rectification.

To save going through 4 pages of threads, has any concrete evidence been found ?

Brian
 
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At the start we set of trying to find out what the alternator did, or did not do, what the charging system is, what was wrong, and how we could do a quick cheap rectification.

To save going through 4 pages of threads, has any concrete evidence been found ?


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lots of too-ing and fro-ing... things seem a good idea, then they dont ... I like your idea of adding a diode to raise the voltage - one said it should be the other way round, others dont see what it would achieve, others think it not a good idea.

Lots of Adverc, Sterling, Balmar.

I found and posted a page from Volvo Penta instructions above - here's a bigger pic.

IMG_0869-1.jpg


so there are 2 take offs from the alternator - B+1 and B+2. B+1 goes to the solenoid, then the starter battery, B+2 with the sensing wire goes to the domestic bank.

I'm gradually tracing and drawing where various coloured wires go to and from, but cant present anything useful yet.

I've found the wires on the bow battery and have traced them half way down the boat, but cant yet see where they come into play at the battery/alternator/engine room end, so I cant tell where this is getting it's charge from yet.

Some wires from the domestic batteries I cant trace, (the 2 brown/white ones, but I havent found the shunt to the monitor yet).

What size/spec diode would you suggest ..... It seems that they reduce voltage by 0.6v when amps are at a certain level but, as they change, the voltage reduction rises to 1.6v, (or something like that)....do they need soldering, or can I use wires with connectors.... not done any successful soldering, ever, but connectors are a doddle.

Could I switch the diode in and out of circuit, so as to reduce the voltage when the batteries are nearly full, (90%??).

As I've said, I probably wont be able to find a diode in Syracusa with no Italian - although I managed a bicycle lock and padlock and chain yesterday!! - so I probably wont be able to put it into practice for a while - which is frustrating!

Hope this gives some food for thought, (might not even answer your question <g>)

Richard
 
Brian,

Gypsy posted this, amongst other stuff:

"I like the logic of the diode in the sense (yellow) wire to fool the regulator into increasing its output by .6v but I am a little worried about the polarity suggested. I'm thinking the anode should be at the battery end so let's get more input on that. "

ISTR that you suggested the cathode be connected to the battery or B+, which is contrary to Gypsy.

I am guessing that the diode must allow the current to flow from the battery or B+ to the regulator, in which case the anode should be at the battery or B+.

However, If you dont want any current to pass along the sensing wire, but the voltage can still be sensed, then you may be right, (I cant comment as I dont understand to any depth yet).

As Gypsy said - if I am going to tey the diode, a bitmore input as to the orientation of the diode, and why, would help.

Cheers

Richard
 
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As Gypsy said - if I am going to tey the diode, a bitmore input as to the orientation of the diode, and why, would help.

[/ QUOTE ] I have this feeling that the sensing wire carries hardly any current. If that's the case (and I may be wrong) any resistance in the line is going to make little difference to the perceived voltage. Anyone know?
 
This is getting far too complicated and shared to carry on with remote-control advice!! Whatever you do with solar, alternator or wind, knowing you and Janet I am certain that you need a genny. That is not an issue. I am fairly sure you don't want to upset yourselves and the entire anchorage by running a cheapo? Honda is the way to go and that's not perfect, but usually acceptable if run with consideration for others. Otherwise you can have a diesel installed but that is expensive so if you are looking at the budget then Honda is the choice, I think.

Italy is horribly expensive for almost everything (have you had to buy any aspirin, ibuprofen or paracetamol yet? You will think they are pulling your leg when you see the price). There are other posters here from Malta who could advise. Otherwise, can someone come out with one on Easy Jet - they charge only £8 or so for 20kg extra baggage and I think the 2kW Honda is less than 20kg? It might even pay you to fit in a quick trip back to Blighty to pick one up?
 
Richard (and Brian), I have just re-read the parts about the diode. I was concerned about the diode polarity but now I see that I ended up suggesting the same polarity as Halcyon. I wanted the Anode to be at the source of the sensing which in my mind should be the +term of the battery. Halcyon suggested the anode to the +B of the alternator which is where the yellow lead currently resides. So, I agree, the anode should be at the sensing point and the cathode to the yellow lead which goes to the regulator. Sorry if I caused any confusion but best we talked it thru.

There does however seem to be some confusion about the diode rating and if it needs a heat sink. I think this comes from one of the technical items in the Smartgauge discussion where they suggest a diode could be inserted between the +D and the rotor winding. This is QUITE different than inserting it in the sense line for the regulator even though it is using the same idea. In their case it would need to carry a lot of current but when used in the sense lead of the regulator there will be very little current so a lower power diode (probably 1N4001 or 1N4002 which are rated at 1A) should be sufficient, but you need to measure the current through the yellow wire to be sure.

Jim, you are right the sense line shouldn't have much current but the voltage drop across a diode junction is mostly independent of the current if it stays well within the diode forward current ratings and doesn't overheat. It will give a 0.6-0.7V drop even if the voltage changes so that is why it is a better solution than trying to work out what resistance might cause a similar voltage drop - and anyway it is a dynamic situation so a given resistor will never be right for the range of variables.
Ray
 
Using a diode to drop voltage sensed -

I'll bow to your experience if you've tried this. What worried me is that most voltage sensors detect voltage across a circuit with an infinite, or very high, resistance. So, to create a voltage drop of 5%, you'd have to insert something with about 5% of that resistance. It seemed to me (ignorant of the exact circuitry of a sensing line) that this would be quite a high resistance - well above that of a diode the right way round. So to speak.
 
I haven't used the diode in this specific situation but I doubt there would be any disastrous results. I would be willing to try but I think Richard needs to develop his knowledge a bit more or have a handy electro friend around at the time. I currently use 4x1n4002 diodes in series to drop the voltage to the fan inside my fridge to keep slow air circulation when the compressor is off. I know it is not quite the same and your point about hi impedance on the sense line is not to be ignored and that is why I suggested that the current be measured in the "yellow" sense line as part of the discovery process.

If he knows the current in the sense line under the existing situation, he could easily put a fuse of the same rating in the line when trying the diode. Fuses typically blow at twice their rated current (unless it is a fancy type) but would still give reasonable protection.

Poor Richard, we are boiling his brain over this! All these ideas without proof in some cases and he has to worry about the risk factor. Still, as an old friend of mine once said..."if you give up trying, you may as well be dead!".
Ray
 
Thanks for that.

I think most of us who've taken up sailing full time have found ourselves on a very steep learning curve in some or other area of expertise!

That's where this forum is very useful - instead of having to work your way through libraries, you're pointed quite quickly to relevant information (and some irrelevant.

Right. Off tomorrow to bait the port police around the Ionian for a couple of weeks, so I'll look up to see where this thread has gone after that!
 
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I currently use 4x1n4002 diodes in series to drop the voltage to the fan inside my fridge to keep slow air circulation when the compressor is off.

..........

that is why I suggested that the current be measured in the "yellow" sense line as part of the discovery process.

...........

If he knows the current in the sense line under the existing situation,

.......

Poor Richard, we are boiling his brain over this!

..."if you give up trying, you may as well be dead!".
Ray

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Ray'

dont worry about boiling my brain - as Jim says, it's an education.

presumably your diodes in series drop the voltage from 12v to 10.2v, (3 x 0.6v)?

OK - I just got a bit excited because I found some diodes in an electronics kit I bought from Maplins. But they are 1N4148, (7 of them), and I find that they are 0.2A 75V, whereas the ones you kind of suggest are 1A 100v, or 1A 50v. Presumably the 1N4148 diodes arent going to be much use in this situation, (unless we find the current is say, 0.1A or so??).

But I guess i know what I'm looking for now.

In terms of measuring the current in the sense wire.... it dissappears into the regulator so, whilst I can get a probe on the B+2 terminal, I cant get one on anywhere else on the yellow wire... any suggestions as to how I could measure the current, (I have a digital multimeter)?

Cheers

Richard
 
Richard

If you have a Maplins near, buy 1 off IN5401 part no OL82D, inc Vat £0.17.

Or PM me a address, and I'll drop one in the post with a couple of leads soldered on.

IN4148 are not good for your jop.

Brian
 
Brian,

Maplin, address, post, all a problem <g> but I'm sure if I can find one, I'll be able to solder some leads on somehow.

and there must be a supplier somewhere in Syracusa.

Thanks for the offer!
 
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