Buying in Italy

[Portofino]

Hi Genoa L a Rague 3 hrs @ 27 ish knots
Arie de Broom will lift out and stand if necessary
Google transboat .co.uk. Chris Bugler
They do regular Trips from uk delivering our stuff "fairprinseeks"etc so tee up a return.
Hope this helps

 

[Greg2]

Thanks guys, really useful tips. Sounds as though this is a doable option if the boat is right.

 

[MBM_Greg]

My father recently bought a boat in Pisa, Italy. It can be difficult with hidden charges everywhere, but it is a perfect time to do so due to their economic issues. Beware of the exchange rate when you make the purchase as that can make a large difference.
One problem we had was with the survey - it was one page. They don't see the point in saying this is fine, that is fine etc. They only note any problem areas.
Teak and coloured hulls 10-years-old or more will need attention.
Best of luck!

 

[Greg2]

My father recently bought a boat in Pisa, Italy. It can be difficult with hidden charges everywhere, but it is a perfect time to do so due to their economic issues. Beware of the exchange rate when you make the purchase as that can make a large difference.
One problem we had was with the survey - it was one page. They don't see the point in saying this is fine, that is fine etc. They only note any problem areas.
Teak and coloured hulls 10-years-old or more will need attention.
Best of luck!

Thanks for this. Any tips on the hidden charges I should look out for?

 

[MapisM]

Any tips on the hidden charges I should look out for?

Yes, just reject them! There shouldn't be any.
The only one I can think of, which isn't actually "hidden", but it might appear so if you're not used to it, is that as I said when boats are registered, the transfer of ownership requires a notarised act, and that has some costs, which normally are beared by the buyer - though maybe they could be part of the negotiation...
Don't ask me how much that is though, I really can't remember.
Not much in the grand scheme, anyway.

 

[BartW]

Don't ask me how much that is though, I really can't remember.
Not much in the grand scheme, anyway.

in my case it was 500 euro for the notarised act,
the seller claimed that he also had to pay 500 euro, but I'm not sure about this, as he apparentaly was good friends with the notary, and his payment was going to be arranged with other businesses he had with with her.

anyway, I was very pleased with the involvement of the notary, in combination with the prof. broker (he insisted to use a notary),
so that I had more assurance about the security of my payment, and the full ownership of the vessel,
as here on the forum I have read many story's about people buying a boat, in UK with a simple bill of sale, or elsewhere in europe, and never be sure about ownership, or eventual debts on the boat.
so for me that 500 euro was very well spend

 

[Greg2]

I agree that the use of a Notary sounds like money well spent. Did you find your own or use one suggested by the Broker?

I am also not sure whether to use a local Surveyor and possibly engineer for surveys or whether to pay for UK based people to travel out there. Any thoughts?

 

[BartW]

Did you find your own or use one suggested by the Broker?

I am also not sure whether to use a local Surveyor and possibly engineer for surveys or whether to pay for UK based people to travel out there. Any thoughts?

we used the notary suggested by the broker. Afterwards I realised that the notary had a business relation with the seller, but this didn't cause me any problem.

forum mate Poweryachtblog advised me a good and well known Italian surveyor.
GC is independent, he's a retired gouverment inspector, and writes articles in magazines, ...
He is honest and corect for all party's involved.
he did a good job for me, at a correct price.
You have to take care of a second surveyor or a engineer for the engines, eventually find somebody local via GC, thats what I did.
GC is really good on Hull condition, superstructure, tubing, seacocks, ... and checking the paperwork,
When your purchase gets on, I'll PM you his details.

good luck with the search.

 

[MapisM]

I am also not sure whether to use a local Surveyor and possibly engineer for surveys or whether to pay for UK based people to travel out there. Any thoughts?

Fwiw, I can confirm that the guy Bartw used, based on PYB suggestion, indeed is one of the most well known in Italy, and has a good reputation.

That said, I would rather use an IT surveyor for a UK boat, and a UK surveyor for an IT boat.
You never know who's friend of who, if you see what I mean.
Otoh, that means a somewhat higher cost, of course...

At the end of the day, it also depends on the overall boat value and on your own expertise. Even if I'm neither a surveyor nor an engineer, I did buy a few boats with no survey at all. And I never had to regret that.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I am also not sure whether to use a local Surveyor and possibly engineer for surveys or whether to pay for UK based people to travel out there. Any thoughts?

When I bought my current boat in Italy, I used a local surveyor who came recommended. He didn't take much time but produced a detailed and accurate report so I wouldn't hesitate to use a local guy again

 

[Greg2]

Thanks, sounds like local might be an option if I can get a good one. Where is the surveyor you used based BartW?

 

[oceanfroggie]

The way things are going it may cost you less to buy Italy, keep the boat of your choice and sell off the rest of Italy's assets to Chinese junk merchants.

 

[MapisM]

The way things are going it may cost you less to buy Italy, keep the boat of your choice and sell off the rest of Italy's assets to Chinese junk merchants.

Haha, funny.
Funny, if it weren't that the Trevi Fountain alone is probably worth enough to buy any sort of pleasure boat on the planet, that is...
But don't take my word for it, try to make an offer instead!

 

[BartW]

Where is the surveyor you used based BartW?

GC is living in Livorno, but he is used to travel all over Italy by train.
I’ll PM you his details

Here is a pic while he’s checking the GRP of our small ship,
with a lamp and a hammer he has been investigating thoroughly the complete hull for signs of osmosis or any other issues.

On this pic he’s checking the gunwhale (wood), and here he discovered a few bad patches. Subsequently he proposed a substantial price reduction for that (objective costing) on which the seller agreed.

And here he is checking one of the seacocks, there are about 10 of them, but these were in good condition, they were all replaced only 5 years ago.

 

[Greg2]

Looks like he is thorough BartW. Thanks for his contat details.

 

[Greg2]

Okay, getting close to conditional offer as owner has reduced the price and it looks as though it might all stack up.

The Broker says that there will be no need for a notary as they can do everything - contract, bill of sale and de-register in Italy. They use the ISYBA contract apparently.

Does this sound right? Doesn't seem entirely in line with the process described by those in the know on here.

 

[BartW]

actually in my case, the broker proposed to use the notary to cover the time between un registering and paying the boat;
the seller didn't want to unregister before payment, and I didn't want to pay before un-registering,.....
so the notary kept my money while I was waiting for the paperwork, and I can tell you that the seller was in a hurry to get the paperwork done

at the same time the notary could check the paperwork about ownership, etc...
I payed 500 euro for that, worth the money for me...

 

[MapisM]

The Broker says that there will be no need for a notary as they can do everything - contract, bill of sale and de-register in Italy. They use the ISYBA contract apparently.

Does this sound right?

Nope, it doesn't.
But mind, here I'm just using common sense, because I do have first hand experience of transfers, but in none of them the boats were de-registered.
Otoh, if for an asset (be it a boat, a house, or a company - it doesn't really matter) the transfer of ownership must be notarised, I can't see how its de-registration should NOT require a notary act. It would be a logical nonsense.
If you're using an IT surveyor you could cross check with him what the broker is saying.
Even if in theory that has nothing to see with the surveyor job, I bet he will know. Maybe Bart can confirm if GC was aware of all that.

 

[BartW]

Even if in theory that has nothing to see with the surveyor job, I bet he will know. Maybe Bart can confirm if GC was aware of all that.

In my case GC was not aware of all this, but he confirmed that I had a very professional broker. GC knew him from before, and was from the same "old school"

During the process my broker behaved very professional from begin till finish.

Now in greg's case, as MapisM say's, I would confirm with the surveyor how to proceed, cause they know the rules (as long its an IT surveyor)

or you could propose the broker that you are only paying when all the paperwork is finalised, if he agrees, then you can still decide if you involve a notary or the surveyor or... to check the paperwork.

GC proposed me to call him for any question during the process.
I've called him after the survey about a few technical aspects, but not for paperwork.

 

[MapisM]

you can still decide if you involve a notary or the surveyor or... to check the paperwork.

Actually, my point was that in IT any act for which notarisation is required (by law), can ONLY be prepared and registered by a notary. Anything else is null.
But as I said, I'm not sure about de-registration specifically.