Buying in Italy

[Greg2]

Anyone had experience of buying a boat in Italy? Are there any particular issues to be aware of?
Boat in question has a note to say 'commission not included' and I am not sure what this means i.e. is it VAT, the brokers commission or something entirely different?

 

[capsco]

I understand that it is not uncommon for the purchaser to pay commission in Italy, forumite Alf "Divemaster1 is your man, he has experience of buying in Italy.

I think he is a little busy at the moment though.

 

[Divemaster1]

Some of our experience here .... http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42546

Comission is usually split between seller and buyer in Italy .... not un-common with 4 - 5% from each.... my broker earned his fee from me easily by instigating a price reduction, which exceeded his fees ....

 

[Greg2]

Thanks guys. Very useful story Divemaster1 and reassuring to hear that boat buying in Italy seems to be quite safe - actually sounds as though it is better than it is here!!

 

[MapisM]

Very useful story Divemaster1 and reassuring to hear that boat buying in Italy seems to be quite safe - actually sounds as though it is better than it is here!!

Indeed. I can second all what Alf already said, but with a caveat: you don't specify what sort of boat you're looking at, and depending on that, you might actually be playing in a completely different league.
First of all, "buying a boat in Italy" does not imply an IT flagged boat.
Secondly, even assuming that you're talking about an IT flagged boat, the notarised act with the related peace of mind does not apply if the boat is not registered, and registration is only mandatory for boats above 10m LOA.
For non-registered boats, in principle the sales transactions are more similar to the British ones.

 

[BartW]

bought a 20yo 70ft boat in Italy this year,
boat buying seems very common / normal business in Italy, all processes well in place,
in my case, I was very lucky with a good surveyor, and a correct/ professional broker, but that is important everywhere you buy a boat I guess.

the boat that I bought was coded in Italy, and I coded here again in Belgium, so for me it was important that she was correctly unregistered in Italy, and that seemend to be a lot more difficult then I expected, (still don't know exactly why) it took some extra time, but the broker assisted very good to get all paperwork correctly finalised.

comission for the broker is normally added to the agreed price, (usually 5% from the seller + 5% from the buyer, or other % to be agreed with the broker in advance)

still a big crisis over there in boat business , so I think still some nice oppertunities can be found there !
good luck with the boat buying.

 

[MapisM]

for me it was important that she was correctly unregistered in Italy, and that seemend to be a lot more difficult then I expected, (still don't know exactly why)

Bart, you probably had to go through a notarised act, which in fact would have been necessary even if the boat was "only" sold, without a change of registration.
I agree that there's some degree of bureaucracy involved, but at the same time you get a peace of mind which in my understanding is more difficult to achieve, with the simpler BoS required under UK law.
Frinstance, now you can be 100% assured that no bank on earth will ever be able to claim any sort of right on the boat, because if the bank would have accepted her as a collateral without registering their right in the public registry (which the notary must have checked, before selling you the boat), their claim would have no validity whatsoever.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

My current boat was in Italy when I bought her but she was being sold by the Croatian Ferretti dealer. Firstly there was never any question of an extra commission being added to the agreed buying price and second the whole process was efficient and seamless although I did have some disagreements with the dealer afterwards. I've bought a number of boats in the Med and one aspect you do have to watch out for is title documentation. They simply aren't as particular with documentation as we are in the UK and this could be an issue if you intend to register the boat with the UK Part 1 Registry. So check that all the documentation you think you will need exists in the form you want it (ie originals not copies if required) before you complete the purchase.
Going back to Italy, I have been impressed with the boating infrastructure in Italy generally, at least in the Adriatic. The marinas seem to be well run and not too expensive and maintenance facilities are generally excellent

 

[Greg2]

Thanks guys, more useful information as ever on this forum.

Boat is 12 metre so should be registered in Italy MapisM?

Broker has confirmed that it is 5 per cent each from the buyer and seller so I need to factor in to the overall costs.

Interesting what you say about the boat trade over there BartW. Asking price is competitive and offers will be considered so maybe a reasonable deal to be had.

Boat is in northern Italy so I am guessing around £5k to transport to the UK by road if I can get a return trip?

 

[capsco]

The transport in Italy part could be very expensive depends on location, try to sail it to France if possible.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, avoid road transport in Italy if at all possible. Much better to go to by sea to France, or Slovenia if boat is that side. Lower transport costs and greater choice.

 

[MapisM]

Boat is 12 metre so should be registered in Italy MapisM?

In principle, yes.
Just be aware that the length limit is based on the registered "hull length", which is typically shorter than the physical LOA, because it does not take into account some parts as bow pulpits or swim platform, when not moulded together with the hull.
Just as an example, as I recall the Zaffiro 36 from Cranchi has an almost 12m LOA but a hull length which fits (just) the 10m limit, therefore a registration is not required for such boat.
In any case, registration letters are pretty big and visible, and must be attached to the port side astern and to the stbd side at the bow. You really can't miss them, so if they're not there, it means that the boat is not registered.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Yes, avoid road transport in Italy if at all possible. Much better to go to by sea to France, or Slovenia if boat is that side. Lower transport costs and greater choice.

Agree totally with that. I looked at trucking my previous boat, a 46 footer, across Italy and it was ridiculously expensive due, apparently, to all the permits required (no wonder Italy is going bust under the weight of it's bureaucracy). Much better to sail her to somewhere like La Rague or Port Napoleon in SoF from where you can get competitive freight prices back to UK

 

[Divemaster1]

Boat at sea to Le grande motte , then Road straight up through France ...

 

[MapisM]

it was ridiculously expensive due, apparently, to all the permits required

Not just a matter of paperwork, actually.
A police escort is also required, and this is a service for which the police charges the shipping co. (rightly so, imho).
IIRC, the police excort is required for any load whose width exceeds 3.50m.
Isn't there such requirement in F or UK?
Or maybe the police does that FoC, as part of the public service?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Not just a matter of paperwork, actually.
A police escort is also required, and this is a service for which the police charges the shipping co. (rightly so, imho).
IIRC, the police excort is required for any load whose width exceeds 3.50m.
Isn't there such requirement in F or UK?
Or maybe the police does that FoC, as part of the public service?

The requirements here are less onerous AFAIK. Anything over 2.9m width and/or 44t is considered an abnormal load but even if a load exceeds these dimensions, it is usually still not necessary to get a police escort and most abnormal loads are only subject to notification and self escorting. I think once the load gets above 100t or 5.1m width it needs a proper police escort. But I have to say I'm not 100% sure. All I do know is that hauliers we use try to get out of Italy by the shortest and quickest route to minimise the cost!

 

[Crabman]

When I bought in Sardinia the only pain was the flights in the winter as there were no direct flights . As to getting the boat back have a look at freight on a ship. The broker and surveyor I used were great, no hassle. But you are right to do the homework now .Enjoy.

 

[Crabman]

Agree totally with that. I looked at trucking my previous boat, a 46 footer, across Italy and it was ridiculously expensive due, apparently, to all the permits required (no wonder Italy is going bust under the weight of it's bureaucracy). Much better to sail her to somewhere like La Rague or Port Napoleon in SoF from where you can get competitive freight prices back to UK

Port Napoleon agree with that.

 

[Greg2]

Boat is in Genoa so not too far from the French border??

Just wondering how the cost of cruising to Port Napoleon or similar would compare to the cost of getting out of Italy. Would the extra cost be the only issue or is transport more readily available in France??

I guess I might also need to factor in berthing/storage fees somewhere if there is a delay in transport??

 

[Divemaster1]

Fair whack of N European boats transported to S France, and better chance of picking up an empty return transporter ... about £1 K cheaper...

Don't pick landing site, until you have found transport company .... and ask them for a return load ...