Buying - help please

iantomlinson said:
This thread started at advice on boat buying. Why have you changed it into a technical debate over sails. Start a new thread and have your arguments there????
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Because the OP asked about in mast and its suitability for his situation as 2 boats under consideration were fitted with it. One of them as standard and the other from memory almost all built were so fitted. Answered the question from my own experience and then other posters (with no experience of in mast) questioned whether it really was easier. Some people seem unable to accept a straight answer from experience of both systems and start trying to find reasons not to do with necessarily ease of handling why they are not a "good thing" or them not having felt the need to change. None of which helps the OP of course. It helps to read his first post and later ones where he clearly explains what he is looking for and his type of use and you realise that many of the so called negatives are either wrong or of no relevance to him.
 
Tranona said:
No. Nobody would admit that it is true because it simply is not. The facts are against those who claim so. It is the choice of many who buy boats to go ocean sailing. See the link in post#110 for examples. BTW most of the people who buy such boats are not "fit young sailors" but experienced serial boat owners who spec their boats to suit their needs (even if some of them may have a crew!)

I often wonder how many people have ever been in a situation where they were forced to drop their mainsail? or indeed had a furling mainsail jam and had to climb the mast with knife in mouth. It has always seemed to me to be one of those myths that takes on a life of its own because it sounds so awful.
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I have dropped a mainsail and hoisted a tri sail does that count.
 
Fr J Hackett said:
I have dropped a mainsail and hoisted a tri sail does that count.
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Yes, you can have that one - but if you had a furling main you could just wind it in and the fly your trysail. Selden have a mast section that is both furling and has a second track. Suspect many of the boats in the HR range and other boars aimed at the ocean market will specify that.

Not sure the OP will worry about that sort of thing based on what he plans to do with his boat!

Indulge me an anecdote. My Eventide Tranona was the first built by Hartwells which had employed Edward Atkinson who built the first Eventide in Singapore and sailed it back to UK. The owner was a Consultant psychiatrist and he and Edward were gung ho sailors and the boat was kitted out with all the gear (for the times) for offshore sailing. I have all his accounts of his cruises for the 7 years he had it and he certainly got maximum use out of the boat with long passages from Salcombe to Ireland and twice down to Brittany - heady stuff for 1960s in a little plywood boat. Second owner did a lot also, third not much. I bought it in 1980 and in 1992 did a major refit with a redesigned deeper keel and new rudder and sails. Over the years I sailed up and down the channel and across (once single handed) before being seduced by the med. Still kept it for summer us until 2010 when I laid it up for another refit which was completed in 2019, boat sold and now lives in S Wales. In the pile of gear that went with it was the storm jib that had never been out of its bag and 2 smaller original jibs that were like new. I can only recall one occasion when I had to put in a second reef and often felt the hole in performance going from full main to first reef.

I know ocean sailing away from the milk runs (and even in them at times) is more demanding, but the vast majority of UK sailors will never get into the sort of situations that might occur there and basing their boat and gear choice on what might be suitable there seems odd. For most people sailing is a fairweather pastime and the boat is a platform for getting there, not an endurance test. So easy to handle comfortable spacious well equipped boats are what people want and what builders produce. Does not of course satisfy all buyers' needs, but fortunately there is a stock of old boats built when expectations were different to meet some of those needs as I have just found out with my new purchase. Pity I can't justify the cost of a new in mast rig though!
 
Tranona said:
Have a look here yachtworld.co.uk/boats-for-sale/make-hallberg-rassy/ there are over 150 boats listed here and almost all of the post 1985 (when Selden in mast came in) have in mast, and some of the earlier ones have been converted. Slab reefing is more common below 40', but even then mostly on older boats. However there are 2 nearly new 340s and 2 342s from the mid 2000s that all have in mast. Note also the locations of the boats - all over the world. Have these owners (who are shelling out mega money) been wrong in their choice. You would think so if some here are to be believed.
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I'm not too surprised multiple hundreds of thousand pound HR owners have adopted it, it doesn't necessarily say more than what you said, its easier. Older gents that can afford that probably want it easier. They can probably afford getting it serviced regularly.

Imagine for a minute if furling sails were the norm 50 years ago and somebody came up with the bright idea of having individual size headsails for different conditions and for the main a complicated system of batten, batten cars in a sail that had a choice of only 3 pre-determined areas. To use it you had to go to the mast every time you wanted to raise it or drop, then because several hundred sq ft of sail is a problem to handle and stow there is a big bag attached to the boom and hung from some string (which gets caught on the battens). You have to go to the mast to change sail area - quite fun as you need to do it when the wind gets stronger, exactly when you don't want to leave the cockpit. OK the intrepid salesman says you can lead all these lines back to the cockpit and use fancy rope and expensive blocks to avoid all the friction and you only need 5 or 6 new clutches and 2 big winches.

Bemused owners says - so what you are telling me is that I lose my simple in mast which needs only 2 control lines, gives me infinitely variable sail area, self stows inside the mast and can be controlled from the cockpit. What are the benefits? well you will be able to sail a few degrees closer to the wind, maybe half a knot faster and ..... keep the sailmaker and rigger in work repairing broken battens, chafe and all the string you now need that you did not have before. Plus of course your deck will be littered with all the extra hardware and string that makes it work.

Not very convincing is it?
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haha yes put like that it seems unlikely. But still... IF there are enough people in the world who consider "if it can go wrong it will go wrong" a maxim to live by as I tend to we might be persuaded that a loss of convenience was worth it for a more fail proof system. A bit like people who still prefer sea kindly classic style boats with encapsulated keels that can't fall off over modern yachts....

This hang up about old style boats and particularly old style rigs is peculiarly British.
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Our cruising grounds are fairly challenging and weather changeable compared to many places, possibly one reason why the reluctance to give up older designs emanating from traditional seafaring design wisdom for those emanating from charter fleet designs for maximising cabins and entertaining space. Before you say it I would disagree that because nearly all new boats are not of an older design its purely because thats not how we want them. We sacrifice what we want to have something cheaper all the time and the design tide turns in that direction, until what we really want seems ridiculously expense in comparison and gradually we forget what we want and go with what is on offer. Contessa 32s are still being made but they cost quarter of a million for that trad production method and heavy lay up so people who would love one make do with a 3D printed Bavaria 32 for half the price. It floats just like a Contessa does, even has more space inside, faster in a smooth sea. We'll buy one and convince ourselves that we didn't really want the Contessa, The Bavaria is a better boat all round and only daft romantics love classic lines.
 
Anyone who hasn't had enough on in-mast can head over to In-mast furling | Sailing Anarchy Forums where older Americans are in favour because they "just don't give a shit about what the sailshape is anymore.", another said "at my age I value ease of use and not going on deck to take the main down." while others predict a "dangerous clusterfuck".

Mostly positive though, I'm starting to think it sounds like something that with practice and maintenance would so rarely go wrong its probably fine. Only one anecdote about a sail that had been cut off. A fair few about jams that were successfully unjammed.

This seemed a true point though "I can't help wondering whether one of the major issues pushing people to furling mains is a problem of opulence: loadsamoney lets people buy bigger boats than they can handle, so they load the boat up with more systems to allow them to sail it without sharing their ride with extra crew. "

Bigger, most yachts are sailed by couples and everything gets bigger and heavier as the boat does. And older. I always wondered how those 70 year old couples handle their 50ft yachts. Now I know. And electric winch handles. If it allows 70 year olds to circumnavigate before the lights go out then good on them for not stopping! What have they got to lose.
 
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