Buying - help please

[iantomlinson]

Again a Colvic with a helm position that looks good. I wonder if this is because Colvic were mainly (or at least partly) motorboat manufacturers who know what a wheelhouse should be like? Rather than a sailboat maker who puts the helm behind the galley 3 meters from the little window. Crappy video but enough to work it out

How is it at night helming from the inside? Are there any times when you'd like too be inside but its really not suitable?

We have the other layout with the galley forward. Our chart table behind the inside helm. It's all a compromise. The designer (john bennett) is a well respected yacht designer also. I thought they would be sailing "tubs" like nauticats,fishers,Watson etc until I sailed one. Very surprised. Yes they need a decent blow to get steaming yes they are better than most in heavy seas. Brilliant size cockpit for all the sheets scattered before you tidy them up. Night time prefer outside helm as was said about internal lights messing up vision. When it rains or blows cold it's nice to have a cuppa in the warm dry pilot house but you still gotta go back out to trim. Vision is good inside and outside autohelm run from plotter inside helps. Very easy to steam up windows but avoidable. Not greatly roomy compared to 34ft yachts nowadays but price difference?. Horses for courses though. The only way is to find somebody who has one and go for a day out. Scotland for us is a nono. Dartmouth yeah no problem.

 

[iantomlinson]

We have the other layout with the galley forward. Our chart table behind the inside helm. It's all a compromise. The designer (john bennett) is a well respected yacht designer also. I thought they would be sailing "tubs" like nauticats,fishers,Watson etc until I sailed one. Very surprised. Yes they need a decent blow to get steaming yes they are better than most in heavy seas. Brilliant size cockpit for all the sheets scattered before you tidy them up. Night time prefer outside helm as was said about internal lights messing up vision. When it rains or blows cold it's nice to have a cuppa in the warm dry pilot house but you still gotta go back out to trim. Vision is good inside and outside autohelm run from plotter inside helps. Very easy to steam up windows but avoidable. Not greatly roomy compared to 34ft yachts nowadays but price difference?. Horses for courses though. The only way is to find somebody who has one and go for a day out. Scotland for us is a nono. Dartmouth yeah no problem.

Another bit. With having a full encapsulated half length fin, we sit upright in soft mud on the last 2ft of the tide holding the Hull. Don't do this at home folks. There's also loads of space for diesel heater and other stuff under cockpit. 300w of solar panels on wheelhouse roof. God I'm biased but look around at all alternatives before committing.

 

[johnp99]

We have the other layout with the galley forward. Our chart table behind the inside helm. It's all a compromise. The designer (john bennett) is a well respected yacht designer also. I thought they would be sailing "tubs" like nauticats,fishers,Watson etc until I sailed one. Very surprised. Yes they need a decent blow to get steaming yes they are better than most in heavy seas. Brilliant size cockpit for all the sheets scattered before you tidy them up. Night time prefer outside helm as was said about internal lights messing up vision. When it rains or blows cold it's nice to have a cuppa in the warm dry pilot house but you still gotta go back out to trim. Vision is good inside and outside autohelm run from plotter inside helps. Very easy to steam up windows but avoidable. Not greatly roomy compared to 34ft yachts nowadays but price difference?. Horses for courses though. The only way is to find somebody who has one and go for a day out. Scotland for us is a nono. Dartmouth yeah no problem.

Thanks Ian, may take you up on that some of my Kids live nr Southampton, if I visit could drop down to Dartmouth which I have sailed out of before... nice area, Currently I am leaning towards a Westerly Riviera, bilge keel, Cheers Johnp

 

[roaringgirl]

And the vast majority of the boats sailing the earth's oceans are volume production boat. Despite your obvious disdain for them most seem to manage just fine.

I think it's because of the number of mid-ocean failures I've dealt with, and the fact that I bought my boat in order to circumnavigate.

 

[Adios]

I think it's because of the number of mid-ocean failures I've dealt with, and the fact that I bought my boat in order to circumnavigate.

Exactly what I was thinking

But maybe its people who really never go out in a blow and who's transatlantic aspirations have long since shrunk to lunch on the island. Not wishing to generalise but you get my drift.

Its a really important distinction to make if in mast keeps getting more popular and people praise it from a perspective of never been more than a few hours motoring from safety. Can anyone in favour of it admit that perhaps the phrase "but i wouldn't want to cross an ocean with it" is true? Having achieved 4 knots under bare poles once I wouldn't want the minimal amount of sail to be a full main wrapped in a big bag around the spreaders. Its not like the foresail where you can turn the boat a few times to roll it up. Some sort of system to eject the sail if stuck out would be a minimum requirement, I can start to imagine a few ways but not how to make that work if partly furled. In mast seems inevitably risky for no great gain to a fit young sailor.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Exactly what I was thinking

Its a really important distinction to make if in mast keeps getting more popular and people praise it from a perspective of never been more than a few hours motoring from safety. Can anyone in favour of it admit that perhaps the phrase "but i wouldn't want to cross an ocean with it" is true? Having achieved 4 knots under bare poles once I wouldn't want the minimal amount of sail to be a full main wrapped in a big bag around the spreaders. Its not like the foresail where you can turn the boat a few times to roll it up. Some sort of system to eject the sail if stuck out would be a minimum requirement, I can start to imagine a few ways but not how to make that work if partly furled. In mast seems inevitably risky for no great gain to a fit young sailor.

Or even a fit old one

 

[Adios]

We have the other layout with the galley forward. Our chart table behind the inside helm. It's all a compromise. The designer (john bennett) is a well respected yacht designer also. I thought they would be sailing "tubs" like nauticats,fishers,Watson etc until I sailed one. Very surprised. Yes they need a decent blow to get steaming yes they are better than most in heavy seas. Brilliant size cockpit for all the sheets scattered before you tidy them up. Night time prefer outside helm as was said about internal lights messing up vision. When it rains or blows cold it's nice to have a cuppa in the warm dry pilot house but you still gotta go back out to trim. Vision is good inside and outside autohelm run from plotter inside helps. Very easy to steam up windows but avoidable.

So your galley is in front of the helm? I can see the temptation to design it like that as you can come in and out easier when its further back but isn't it a major problem with wet windows and when the boat is pitching surely the image in the distant not very tall front window is flying up and down? With mist and very light spray its impossible without wipers anyway but mostly I found it OK to see as long as I could get close up to the glass. Still it sounds like a great boat!

Side note I didn't know Colvid Watsons had planning hulls but I must be wrong as this one does 12 knots Colvic Watson 34.6 Motor Sailor For Sale, 11.15m, 1986 (boatshed.com) I find something about these very appealing. I think its the sexiness of high functioning long evolved design. But the sexy part of the design is not its wind sailing qualities, thats just an add on but I think added without detracting anything. A very functional sailing boat is also sexy. But not so sure anyone can say that about compromise boats. Then we accept loss of ideal design in all areas. Still potentially great boats but not very sexy.

 

[Stemar]

Plenty of folk have crossed oceans quite safely with in-mast furling, but people cross oceans in all kinds of weird craft and get away with it. Just because Shane Acton did - and had a ball doing it - doesn't make a Caprice an ideal boat for my round the world trip, at least.

I would stick with slab reefing, because I'm pretty sure of getting a reef or three in or getting the whole thing down pretty much whatever goes wrong. Yes I'd have a roller genny because I'm pretty sure I can get that down too, if things go titzup. That would be my risk assessment for serious off-grid sailing where I need to be independent and deal with whatever the weather throws at me. I'd probably be less fussy for an ARC, but a jammed furling main can still spoil your day in the Solent in an unforecast gale. That's my risk assessment, bot that I'm ever likely to be doing it.

 

[Tranona]

I think it's because of the number of mid-ocean failures I've dealt with, and the fact that I bought my boat in order to circumnavigate.

Really? You would think that all those people who use boats of which you disapprove ought to locked away for their own good. Amazing how they all survive.

Seriously you have made your choice and other people some of whom must be equally experienced and as clever as you make different choices. Please don't try and say your boat type is the ONLY type suitable for circumnavigation when it is obvious that it is not. If it was there would be a queue forming outside the builder's door - and there isn't because I guess the builder closed their doors many years ago because nobody wanted to buy their products or they realised that and decided to make something different that people would buy.

 

[Tranona]

Exactly what I was thinking

Its a really important distinction to make if in mast keeps getting more popular and people praise it from a perspective of never been more than a few hours motoring from safety. Can anyone in favour of it admit that perhaps the phrase "but i wouldn't want to cross an ocean with it" is true? Having achieved 4 knots under bare poles once I wouldn't want the minimal amount of sail to be a full main wrapped in a big bag around the spreaders. Its not like the foresail where you can turn the boat a few times to roll it up. Some sort of system to eject the sail if stuck out would be a minimum requirement, I can start to imagine a few ways but not how to make that work if partly furled. In mast seems inevitably risky for no great gain to a fit young sailor.

Have a look here yachtworld.co.uk/boats-for-sale/make-hallberg-rassy/ there are over 150 boats listed here and almost all of the post 1985 (when Selden in mast came in) have in mast, and some of the earlier ones have been converted. Slab reefing is more common below 40', but even then mostly on older boats. However there are 2 nearly new 340s and 2 342s from the mid 2000s that all have in mast. Note also the locations of the boats - all over the world. Have these owners (who are shelling out mega money) been wrong in their choice. You would think so if some here are to be believed. This hang up about old style boats and particularly old style rigs is peculiarly British.

Imagine for a minute if furling sails were the norm 50 years ago and somebody came up with the bright idea of having individual size headsails for different conditions and for the main a complicated system of batten, batten cars in a sail that had a choice of only 3 pre-determined areas. To use it you had to go to the mast every time you wanted to raise it or drop, then because several hundred sq ft of sail is a problem to handle and stow there is a big bag attached to the boom and hung from some string (which gets caught on the battens). You have to go to the mast to change sail area - quite fun as you need to do it when the wind gets stronger, exactly when you don't want to leave the cockpit. OK the intrepid salesman says you can lead all these lines back to the cockpit and use fancy rope and expensive blocks to avoid all the friction and you only need 5 or 6 new clutches and 2 big winches.

Bemused owners says - so what you are telling me is that I lose my simple in mast which needs only 2 control lines, gives me infinitely variable sail area, self stows inside the mast and can be controlled from the cockpit. What are the benefits? well you will be able to sail a few degrees closer to the wind, maybe half a knot faster and ..... keep the sailmaker and rigger in work repairing broken battens, chafe and all the string you now need that you did not have before. Plus of course your deck will be littered with all the extra hardware and string that makes it work.

Not very convincing is it?

 

[roaringgirl]

Have a look here yachtworld.co.uk/boats-for-sale/make-hallberg-rassy/ there are over 150 boats listed here and almost all of the post 1985 (when Selden in mast came in) have in mast, and some of the earlier ones have been converted. Slab reefing is more common below 40', but even then mostly on older boats. However there are 2 nearly new 340s and 2 342s from the mid 2000s that all have in mast. Note also the locations of the boats - all over the world. Have these owners (who are shelling out mega money) been wrong in their choice. You would think so if some here are to be believed. This hang up about old style boats and particularly old style rigs is peculiarly British.

Imagine for a minute if furling sails were the norm 50 years ago and somebody came up with the bright idea of having individual size headsails for different conditions and for the main a complicated system of batten, batten cars in a sail that had a choice of only 3 pre-determined areas. To use it you had to go to the mast every time you wanted to raise it or drop, then because several hundred sq ft of sail is a problem to handle and stow there is a big bag attached to the boom and hung from some string (which gets caught on the battens). You have to go to the mast to change sail area - quite fun as you need to do it when the wind gets stronger, exactly when you don't want to leave the cockpit. OK the intrepid salesman says you can lead all these lines back to the cockpit and use fancy rope and expensive blocks to avoid all the friction and you only need 5 or 6 new clutches and 2 big winches.

Bemused owners says - so what you are telling me is that I lose my simple in mast which needs only 2 control lines, gives me infinitely variable sail area, self stows inside the mast and can be controlled from the cockpit. What are the benefits? well you will be able to sail a few degrees closer to the wind, maybe half a knot faster and ..... keep the sailmaker and rigger in work repairing broken battens, chafe and all the string you now need that you did not have before. Plus of course your deck will be littered with all the extra hardware and string that makes it work.

Not very convincing is it?

To reiterate my point: when slab reefing fails, you can still get the sail down. When in-mast reefing fails, you may have to go aloft with a knife and cut the sail off at the luff to get it down.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

To reiterate my point: when slab reefing fails, you can still get the sail down. When in-mast reefing fails, you may have to go aloft with a knife and cut the sail off at the luff to get it down.

You and I know what we mean and are more than comfortable with slab reefing but for thousands of others who have been sold on the idea that inmast makes reefing easier then they will continue and 99% will never have a reason to regret their choice or find out that it really isn't that much easier.

 

[Tranona]

To reiterate my point: when slab reefing fails, you can still get the sail down. When in-mast reefing fails, you may have to go aloft with a knife and cut the sail off at the luff to get it down.

The prospect does not seem to bother all those owners who own those lovely HRs (or the Oyster and Nauticats etc) bought specifically for the job. You can keep on stating the obvious, but that does not mean that it is something that figures high in the decision making process.

 

[Tranona]

You and I know what we mean and are more than comfortable with slab reefing but for thousands of others who have been sold on the idea that inmast makes reefing easier then they will continue and 99% will never have a reason to regret their choice or find out that it really isn't that much easier.

That is absolute nonsense. You really do have a problem in accepting that many, probably the majority of new boat buyers who choose in mat have owned boats with slab reefing and are making a deliberate choice. Rather like me. Sailed for years with slab reefing, indeed with the help of a sailmaker converted what was old fashioned roller reefing to single line back to the cockpit. Bought a boat with in mast because that is what the charter managers wanted. For me completely trouble free despite heavy charter usage. Replaced by a new boat bought in 2015 specifically for me (well into my 8th decade) to sail single handed. Absolutely no question of having slab reefing - far too much work and complication. now going full circle and have a boat with conventional battened sails which I shall again convert to single line slab reefing. If I had a choice I would prefer in mast, but I don't and will have to work on the rig to minimise the impact of its basic deficiencies.

Why do you have so much difficulty in accepting that others are capable of making their own decisions based on their own experiences whereas it seems you with no experience of alternatives insist you are right?

 

[Fr J Hackett]

That is absolute nonsense. You really do have a problem in accepting that many, probably the majority of new boat buyers who choose in mat have owned boats with slab reefing and are making a deliberate choice. Rather like me. Sailed for years with slab reefing, indeed with the help of a sailmaker converted what was old fashioned roller reefing to single line back to the cockpit. Bought a boat with in mast because that is what the charter managers wanted. For me completely trouble free despite heavy charter usage. Replaced by a new boat bought in 2015 specifically for me (well into my 8th decade) to sail single handed. Absolutely no question of having slab reefing - far too much work and complication. now going full circle and have a boat with conventional battened sails which I shall again convert to single line slab reefing. If I had a choice I would prefer in mast, but I don't and will have to work on the rig to minimise the impact of its basic deficiencies.

Why do you have so much difficulty in accepting that others are capable of making their own decisions based on their own experiences whereas it seems you with no experience of alternatives insist you are right?

If you read carefully, read carefully, I shall write this only once! " they will continue and 99% will never have a reason to regret their choice" It's a personal choice and as I have never had a problem with slab reefing, conventional at the mast controls, led back to the cockpit or single line it's not a choice I have ever found necessary or worthwhile to make.

 

[iantomlinson]

If you read carefully, read carefully, I shall write this only once! " they will continue and 99% will never have a reason to regret their choice" It's a personal choice and as I have never had a problem with slab reefing, conventional at the mast controls, led back to the cockpit or single line it's not a choice I have ever found necessary or worthwhile to make.

This thread started at advice on boat buying. Why have you changed it into a technical debate over sails. Start a new thread and have your arguments there????

 

[Fr J Hackett]

This thread started at advice on boat buying. Why have you changed it into a technical debate over sails. Start a new thread and have your arguments there????

Ask Tranona

 

[Wansworth]

A proper Scottish fishing vessel ketch rigged,sailing is only a small part of the whole picture your beautifully painted craft will enharnce any harbour and with the wood stove blazing away you will be snug with your wee dram..Fine weather out with the deck chair or a nice beam reach to another anchorage?

 

[Blueboatman]

Silly left field suggestion now..
Or fly out to Oz and buy a decent , a really decent Salar 40 cheap and sail it home , beautifully. Always a few for sale there, in Aus$..
What an adventure that would be…

Cheaper than an Amel 54, too?
And a lot simpler to maintain/depreciate

 

[Tranona]

Exactly what I was thinking

Its a really important distinction to make if in mast keeps getting more popular and people praise it from a perspective of never been more than a few hours motoring from safety. Can anyone in favour of it admit that perhaps the phrase "but i wouldn't want to cross an ocean with it" is true? Having achieved 4 knots under bare poles once I wouldn't want the minimal amount of sail to be a full main wrapped in a big bag around the spreaders. Its not like the foresail where you can turn the boat a few times to roll it up. Some sort of system to eject the sail if stuck out would be a minimum requirement, I can start to imagine a few ways but not how to make that work if partly furled. In mast seems inevitably risky for no great gain to a fit young sailor.

No. Nobody would admit that it is true because it simply is not. The facts are against those who claim so. It is the choice of many who buy boats to go ocean sailing. See the link in post#110 for examples. BTW most of the people who buy such boats are not "fit young sailors" but experienced serial boat owners who spec their boats to suit their needs (even if some of them may have a crew!)

I often wonder how many people have ever been in a situation where they were forced to drop their mainsail? or indeed had a furling mainsail jam and had to climb the mast with knife in mouth. It has always seemed to me to be one of those myths that takes on a life of its own because it sounds so awful.