Buying - help please

[roaringgirl]

Thanks for the anecdote, but you might have guessed by now that I am an academic and rather more fond of systematic evidence. For every single anecdote of a boat having a problem there are thousands who don't and for every one that involves a modern boat with fin and spade you can find one that involves a long keel boat.

It is relying on anecdotes that closes our minds. We have a saying in my discipline "A way of seeing is a way of not seeing". So if you go looking for examples of fin keeled boats failing in some way that is what you will find. If you go looking for failed transom hung rudders you will find those too. You might find Karl Popper a useful read on one of your long night watches. You might then come to the conclusion that to really understand what is going on you need to collect data on all failures, analyse the causes and see if you can find demonstrable patterns. Clearly impossible but it is lazy thinking to assume that anecdotes have any more value than to find out exactly what went wrong in that case. Extrapolating from the single case to the general is not good.

As to choice for circumnavigation there are many more who made different choices and achieved their objective. Just look at the number of modern fin keeled yachts built in Europe that now wander around the Pacific and Australasia. How do you think they got there? Or the number of Australians who have bought ex charter boats in the Med and sailed them back home. Just a couple of examples to show that the old style boats are not a prerequisite for ocean sailing. It would be depressing if they were as it would mean there has been no worthwhile development in Yacht design for over 50 years.

I am perhaps not explaining myself well, I agree anecdotal evidence is not statistically significant. Failures occur in all sorts of designs, the point I'm trying to make (perhaps clumsily) is that some designs make failures easier to manage than others.

 

[Tranona]

None of the dits I am telling are 'myths', they all happened. To me or those close to me.

Something I learned the hard way about sailing is that a lot of the design decisions only matter when things go wrong, and for lots of people, they never do. I learned recently that one of the huge advantages of a keel stepped mast is not to do with sailing performance, but the ability to remove all the rigging and have it stay upright at anchor - which allows serious rigging problems to be fixed when no crane is available.

Did not say your anecdotes were myths, nor that they did not happen. Just caution that you can no more call them "typical" then any other persons' anecdotes. They are what they are - individual events. Of course they provide useful information and they often have a significant impact on ones own personal decisions.

Doubt a designer ever intended a keel stepped mast to stand on its own without rigging (unintended consequences?) nor would that be a reason for choosing it in most peoples' decision making.

You are right, most people never have problems and for those that do they are often unpredictable and one off. That is why you have to look at the general and only use the particular to identify specific. Have a look at accident reports and you will see how rarely they come up with any serious generalisable recommendations. S**t happens but along the way good design, good seamanship (and a bit of luck) has kept you away from it. Failures and disasters are almost always multi cause and it is difficult to know what you could have done to avoid them.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I maybe did not explain the "balancing" bit well enough. The jib is not partly furled - it is just 106%. The main is reefed first and being ab le to roll just a bit away (as one might with a genoa) rather than a whole reef results in a more balanced sail area in relation to the wind strength. The whole point is that just like a furling genoa your choices of sail area are infinite rather than predetermined. How many people have individual sized foresails now when infinitely variable furling sails are available? As to ways round the problems of battened sails, why should it be any different with furling sails? Almost all the criticisms from people who do not have them are solvable in just the same way. Follow the instructions and practice and amazingly all the problems you can think of disappear. How do you think I managed nearly 25 years with none of the perceived problems?

The 6 years I had my Bavaria 33 I never once had a problem and managed to sail up and down the coast in and out of my own marina berth, anchored in many delightful places all on my own. Best bit is that the rig allowed me to set sail just outside the marina in minutes and then sail all the way in and out of Poole harbour, tacking down the channels.

So yes, there are real advantages if you are prepared to forget about your past prejudices and look for them rather than dismissing based on myths and other individuals' views. As I said earlier they are nothing new and revolutionary and would never have gained the market share they have if they were as awful as the naysayers pretend.

Little bit of sailing porn. furling mainsail does not seem to impede Michael - he chose it deliberately and his videos show how he makes use of it mjambo.de

It's horses for courses I don't think I am prejudiced against them I see them as no better and possibly worse than slab reefing other than the example that you quote which I am quite happy to believe. The fact remains that I have been able to sail for many years boats up to 42 foot without the need of inmast reefing. I have explained that above say 50 foot then I would think about in boom reefing which in the unlikely event of malfunction would be simpler to control but more than likely I would still opt for slab reefing with the obvious addition of powered winches. It comes down to what you feel comfortable with and of course your experiences. My boats were cutter rigged so I had little difficulty in finding a balanced sail plan.
I can see the advantage or attraction on some of the motor sailors mentioned where clambering on the pilothouse roof may not be the easiest of options nor running lines back to the aft of the boat.

 

[roaringgirl]

Did not say your anecdotes were myths, nor that they did not happen. Just caution that you can no more call them "typical" then any other persons' anecdotes. They are what they are - individual events. Of course they provide useful information and they often have a significant impact on ones own personal decisions.

Doubt a designer ever intended a keel stepped mast to stand on its own without rigging (unintended consequences?) nor would that be a reason for choosing it in most peoples' decision making.

You are right, most people never have problems and for those that do they are often unpredictable and one off. That is why you have to look at the general and only use the particular to identify specific. Have a look at accident reports and you will see how rarely they come up with any serious generalisable recommendations. S**t happens but along the way good design, good seamanship (and a bit of luck) has kept you away from it. Failures and disasters are almost always multi cause and it is difficult to know what you could have done to avoid them.

Every time we have a failure on our boat (which is all the time - we live aboard!) we investigate what can be changed to avoid it in future. Serious incidents are frequently caused by a cascade of failures and/or bad decisions - this is why design choices are important, and triage of problems is essential.

The vast majority of production boats are built for people to go day sailing around the med or similar. Engineering decisions aren't only about making things stronger/better - any fool can build a bridge that stays up, it takes an engineer to make one that only_ just_ stays up.

 

[Adios]

No. Sailing has always been primarily a summer activity. In the past the poor owners hid their boats in mud berths and the rich hauled theirs out into sheds and decamped to the South of France or the Caribbean.

In the years of the beginning of pleasure yachting every type of commercial and military ship and boat had open cockpits/quarterdecks/bridges. Gradually everyone saw sense apart from the yachties! I realised this one cold and wet day passing all types of craft with their comfortable and dry crews. "Why are we such masochists!" I thought. Will we ever see sense!? But then why would we choose the most expensive and inconvenient way to get from A to B if we weren't masochists! Then having a wheelhouse above a well sound proofed and beautifully accessible smooth 4 cylinder engine was a revelation. Stick a mast on as well why not for when the weather suits sailing, that will do me well. Each to their own though!!

 

[dunedin]

I can't see any wheel houses at Findhorn... Findhorn Bay © Michael Garlick cc-by-sa/2.0

Very strange IMO

Why is that strange? The vast majority - 95% or more - of boats seen sailing in Scotland, whether summer or winter, are conventional yachts with cockpits.
If you want to stay inside, you can get that at home or in your car. Many/most others seem to enjoy sailing (or walking, or cycling etc) for being outside, albeit unlike walking or cycling a good sprayhood provides shelter from most wind and rain when needed.
If I want to go cycling I want a decent bike that cycles well. If I want to go sailing, personally I want a boat that sails well and is enjoyable to sail. Had a lovely sail today, was doing over 8 knots and touched 10 knots downwind, and romped upwind pointing higher and going faster than all other boats nearby - and in shorts and fleece too, no oilskins, in spite of grey Scottish weather. What’s not to like.

 

[Adios]

Why is that strange? The vast majority - 95% or more - of boats seen sailing in Scotland, whether summer or winter, are conventional yachts with cockpits.
If you want to stay inside, you can get that at home or in your car. Many/most others seem to enjoy sailing (or walking, or cycling etc) for being outside, albeit unlike walking or cycling a good sprayhood provides shelter from most wind and rain when needed.
If I want to go cycling I want a decent bike that cycles well. If I want to go sailing, personally I want a boat that sails well and is enjoyable to sail. Had a lovely sail today, was doing over 8 knots and touched 10 knots downwind, and romped upwind pointing higher and going faster than all other boats nearby - and in shorts and fleece too, no oilskins, in spite of grey Scottish weather. What’s not to like.

I expected at least a smattering of wheelhouses, that's all, in such a northern location on the east coast there are less than in an average south coast marina. Odd!

I also get surprised that anyone would buy a saloon car when surely they'll need to carry stuff and should have bought an estate.

 

[Adios]

Just found this Colvic Countess, anyone sailed one?
https://www.clarkeandcarter.co.uk/boats-for-sale/1991-colvic-countess-37-ds-burnham-on-crouch-united-kingdom-6825559/
Thanks Johnp

No but at least it looks like it was properly designed for helming from the inside unlike the moody. You might need to keep jumping across to stand on the settee to see much to port and don't know what rear visibility is like, probably not much, but it looks a decent boat to me. That blue canopy and cover looks new as some photos showing the old white one, loads of options with that as well.

I had a look around their site and saw this. 1980 Gillissen Motoryacht Shotley, United Kingdom - Clarke and Carter I brought a couple of similar boats across from Holland years ago and lived in them. But noticed 1000l fuel tank. £2000 per refill now Sails are the way forward thats for sure

 

[Tranona]

The vast majority of production boats are built for people to go day sailing around the med or similar.

And the vast majority of the boats sailing the earth's oceans are volume production boat. Despite your obvious disdain for them most seem to manage just fine.

 

[Tranona]

It's horses for courses I don't think I am prejudiced against them I see them as no better and possibly worse than slab reefing other than the example that you quote which I am quite happy to believe. The fact remains that I have been able to sail for many years boats up to 42 foot without the need of inmast reefing. I have explained that above say 50 foot then I would think about in boom reefing which in the unlikely event of malfunction would be simpler to control but more than likely I would still opt for slab reefing with the obvious addition of powered winches. It comes down to what you feel comfortable with and of course your experiences. My boats were cutter rigged so I had little difficulty in finding a balanced sail plan.
I can see the advantage or attraction on some of the motor sailors mentioned where clambering on the pilothouse roof may not be the easiest of options nor running lines back to the aft of the boat.

Think I give up. Why are you so resistant and ignore the fact that that vast numbers of people CHOOSE with their own money to buy such things? Do you think they are ignorant or wrong and incapable of deciding what is best for them? Complete contradiction between the first words of your first line and everything else that you written although I now see you begrudgingly reckon it might be ok for motor sailors.

You do really seem to have difficulty in opening up to alternatives and instead making your choice based on zero experience of the alternatives. I have met over the years a large number of users of in mast, particularly new boat buyers and almost all are buying after long experience of other boats most of which will have had slab reefing. They are always clear about their reasons for change and would not go back.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Think I give up. Why are you so resistant and ignore the fact that that vast numbers of people CHOOSE with their own money to buy such things? Do you think they are ignorant or wrong and incapable of deciding what is best for them? Complete contradiction between the first words of your first line and everything else that you written although I now see you begrudgingly reckon it might be ok for motor sailors.

You do really seem to have difficulty in opening up to alternatives and instead making your choice based on zero experience of the alternatives. I have met over the years a large number of users of in mast, particularly new boat buyers and almost all are buying after long experience of other boats most of which will have had slab reefing. They are always clear about their reasons for change and would not go back.

I don't know what persuades people to buy in mast reefing, I suspect that they may think it's more convenient, something that I don't see.

 

[Tranona]

In the years of the beginning of pleasure yachting every type of commercial and military ship and boat had open cockpits/quarterdecks/bridges. Gradually everyone saw sense apart from the yachties! I realised this one cold and wet day passing all types of craft with their comfortable and dry crews. "Why are we such masochists!" I thought. Will we ever see sense!? But then why would we choose the most expensive and inconvenient way to get from A to B if we weren't masochists! Then having a wheelhouse above a well sound proofed and beautifully accessible smooth 4 cylinder engine was a revelation. Stick a mast on as well why not for when the weather suits sailing, that will do me well. Each to their own though!!

All true, but there is a big difference between what you see as now possible (and has been for 50 years since the hey day of motor sailors and what people actually choose to do

 

[Tranona]

Just found this Colvic Countess, anyone sailed one?
https://www.clarkeandcarter.co.uk/boats-for-sale/1991-colvic-countess-37-ds-burnham-on-crouch-united-kingdom-6825559/
Thanks Johnp

Ladyinbed has a 33. An alternative to the similar Westerlys and Moodys of the era. moulded by Colvic and most were home finished. That one looks above average and the DS coachroof works well if a little challenging visually. Has the added bonus of in mast furling and a bow thruster which helps sailing short handed. Popular at the time with the long distance or liveaboard cruisers.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Ladyinbed has a 33. An alternative to the similar Westerlys and Moodys of the era. moulded by Colvic and most were home finished. That one looks above average and the DS coachroof works well if a little challenging visually. Has the added bonus of in mast furling and a bow thruster which helps sailing short handed. Popular at the time with the long distance or liveaboard cruisers.

There is or used to be a guy on the East Cost forum that kept one in Southwold, might be named Colvic Watson or something like that. He would give you chapter and verse.

 

[ashtead]

I’m sure for the older sailor in mast reefing has much to recommend it however if you are thinking of buying an older Hallberg and changing the sail as one might for a nice stiff vectran by say Peter S or others be very careful you check out the in mast gear. I have heard that new sails and old in masts might not mix. I will stick with my stack pack and the £2k saving but many in our class do have the inmast smaller main so clearly attracts some.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I’m sure for the older sailor in mast reefing has much to recommend it however if you are thinking of buying an older Hallberg and changing the sail as one might for a nice stiff vectran by say Peter S or others be very careful you check out the in mast gear. I have heard that new sails and old in masts might not mix. I will stick with my stack pack and the £2k saving but many in our class do have the inmast smaller main so clearly attracts some.

I think that covers the point I made some feel that in mast is easier and maybe it is and that must be an advantage but it's one that I would question but each to his own.

 

[Adios]

I think that covers the point I made some feel that in mast is easier and maybe it is and that must be an advantage but it's one that I would question but each to his own.

I tried to find some in mast jamming on youtube and there's not much. Found this and a charter (which can be ignored) but that was about it. Considering it seems like everyone vlogs their sundays now it might be a reasonable gauge that it doesn't happen often.

Its the sort of thing you'd imagine more likely to happen when forces are greater, in high wind just when you really don't want it to jam. And if the people who have it are having it because its less physical they'd be even less wanting it to happen. But maybe its people who really never go out in a blow and who's transatlantic aspirations have long since shrunk to lunch on the island. Not wishing to generalise but you get my drift.

 

[iantomlinson]

The Fisher is a pastiche of North Sea fishing hulls drawn by Wyatt and Freeman and turned into "yachts" by David Skelton. You only have to look at the vital statistics sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fisher-37-ms to see that they are on the motor end of the motor - sail continuum. compared with the Eclipse sailboatdata.com/sailboat/moody-33-eclipse The extremes of the continuum are demonstrated with the old Nauticat ranges where they had a clear distinction between "motor" and "sailers". the 331 is a very different boat from a 325. Of course it is difficult in this size range to get a reasonable performance sailing boat with a full standup all weather wheelhouse like the Fisher - that is the compromise which results in boats like the Eclipse and the 325 - sailing boats with an inside helm and a raised saloon. As you move up the size range you can increase the size of the deck saloon like the Regina 38 and by the time you get to 40+ foot you can have the best of both worlds with boats like the Nauticat 42.

Boats like the Fisher were never going to be mass market as few people want that compromise so will always be expensive. Fisher made this a virtue and loaded them with high cost kit and finishes. Moody on the other hand aimed their boat at the market that wanted good sailing performance with an inside steering position and a raised deckhouse at an affordable price. It worked. Later on Jeanneau and Bavaria did similar with their larger DS and Vision ranges, although they dropped the dedicated inside steering allowing owners to use their remotes from down below in the raised deck saloons.

I'm probably biased but have a look at a couple more. Endurance. Seastream 34 and the likes of ours. Colvic victor 34. They are pilot house, huge cockpit, dual helm but very surprising how well they sail. You could get a bootiful one for well inside budget. Just putting a spanner in the works sorry.

 

[iantomlinson]

I'm probably biased but have a look at a couple more. Endurance. Seastream 34 and the likes of ours. Colvic victor 34. They are pilot house, huge cockpit, dual helm but very surprising how well they sail. You could get a bootiful one for well inside budget. Just putting a spanner in the works sorry.

But you will find tranona is speaking perfect sense. Totally agree

 

[Adios]

and the likes of ours. Colvic victor 34.

Again a Colvic with a helm position that looks good. I wonder if this is because Colvic were mainly (or at least partly) motorboat manufacturers who know what a wheelhouse should be like? Rather than a sailboat maker who puts the helm behind the galley 3 meters from the little window. Crappy video but enough to work it out

How is it at night helming from the inside? Are there any times when you'd like too be inside but its really not suitable?