Buying caution!!!

[Glynny]

Having looked at the links it is clear that this is not a "normal" boat buying/selling situation. The seller deals in problem boats and has a related business advising and project managing repairs etc.

Such an activity should be approached with caution. If they are selling on their own account (that is they own the boats) you are covered by consumer law. However, they almost certainly are acting as agents for the owners of these clapped out boats, so all the caveats about buying privately apply. If you do not know what you are doing and are aware of and prepared to take the risks, run away.

It is misleading to compare this type of situation with the normal buying and selling of functioning secondhand boats. It is more akin to a car from a scrapyard or salvage yard and just the same care is needed.

So, to the OP. If you want to buy a usable boat, go through the conventional procedure, buying either privately of through a broker. Avoid fringe operators such as this, and don't use your experience there as indicating that there are problems with the market which do not exist.

As Troubadour says, you have to take some responsibility for yourself. If you think it looks dodgy then don't get involved. There are plenty of good boats around and good surveyors willing to advise you on your purchase.

Thank you for your honest appraisal of the issues within my thread. I appreciate this content and help.

However, I must draw your attention to the the "Market" as you say....

In my opinion, there are issues with inconsistencies brought about by rogue operators shall we say. As in any business, there are the "cowboy" element which, as you rightly point out, "If it looks dodgy, don't get involved".
That's OK if you are fortunate enough to recognise that there is a dodgy dealer, broker, surveyor etc.
So, what I am proposing is, (and if it does become part of the nanny state, all the better for the quality systems of the UK and the reassurance to it's buying public) If a person wishes to set up in business selling boats (no matter what values), there should be legislation that governs this. And yes, if this means specific training and qualifications and on-going inspections and re-training, then so be it. Of course, I am not that wet behind the ears to think that this is a perfect and trouble free solution. But it will go most of the way to iron out the massive undulations within the marine buying world (because it does not exist, does not mean it is not required - if this was actually the case, we would still be living in caves.)
I mentioned in my original thread that I am seeking my first boat purchase. I have in fact been sailing on various vessels as both skipper and crew around the UK and Atlantic circuits etc for many years. My experience is that of "using" a boat and since I have no experience of construction and or design I tend to collate information prior to making the ultimate decision on any aspect of life.

Finally, no matter how these boats are being sold, legislation is needed to enable informed decisions to be made by the buying public.
If, however, you are against this suggestion (for your reason of not wanting a nanny state, perhaps), It would be seem apparent that there IS a problem with industry guidelines for example.

 

[dylanwinter]

it is wonderful as it is

Thank you for your honest appraisal of the issues within my thread. I appreciate this content and help.

However, I must draw your attention to the the "Market" as you say....

In my opinion, there are issues with inconsistencies brought about by rogue operators shall we say. As in any business, there are the "cowboy" element which, as you rightly point out, "If it looks dodgy, don't get involved".
That's OK if you are fortunate enough to recognise that there is a dodgy dealer, broker, surveyor etc.
So, what I am proposing is, (and if it does become part of the nanny state, all the better for the quality systems of the UK and the reassurance to it's buying public) If a person wishes to set up in business selling boats (no matter what values), there should be legislation that governs this. And yes, if this means specific training and qualifications and on-going inspections and re-training, then so be it. Of course, I am not that wet behind the ears to think that this is a perfect and trouble free solution. But it will go most of the way to iron out the massive undulations within the marine buying world (because it does not exist, does not mean it is not required - if this was actually the case, we would still be living in caves.)
I mentioned in my original thread that I am seeking my first boat purchase. I have in fact been sailing on various vessels as both skipper and crew around the UK and Atlantic circuits etc for many years. My experience is that of "using" a boat and since I have no experience of construction and or design I tend to collate information prior to making the ultimate decision on any aspect of life.

Finally, no matter how these boats are being sold, legislation is needed to enable informed decisions to be made by the buying public.
If, however, you are against this suggestion (for your reason of not wanting a nanny state, perhaps), It would be seem apparent that there IS a problem with industry guidelines for example.

I think it is fine as it is

there are no industry guidelines

if you know as much as you clearly do and are so well qualified and experienced why were you looking at Boatbreakers and then feigning surprise when they tried to sell you a heap of junk at a heap of junk price.

you went to the equivalent of a car dealer - the equivalent of a bloke with two lock-ups and and ebay account and then expect to legislate him out of business

just out of interest.... do you have many RYA tickets?

Dylan

 

[scottie]

I suspect we are back to the difference between what people expect when they are buying and what he sale can actually afford the seller to provide.
Some years ago I was involved in engine sales and we had many cases where we were able to sell engines removed from boats as " running sold as seen " as a service to our customers the buyer often seeing the engine before removal we could give advice to previous owner as to a reasonable value and the new owner would have our opinion as to the state of what he was buying.
Legislation changed and we found that we could either rebuild and charge rebuilt prices or sell as non running engine parts after partially dismantling every body lost out .

 

[prv]

legislation is needed to enable informed decisions to be made by the buying public.

Legislation to mandate what, in particular?

It's not at all clear to me what your complaint is or what wrong you have suffered, just that you want to regulate other people in a vague and general fashion, on principle.

Pete

 

[dt4134]

I'm with Dylan on this.

Sounds like a perfectly legitimate business. I know a few people who would be in their element clambering around a place like that looking for bargains they could restore.

Just because it is not suitable for you there is no reason to ban it.

Maybe there should be a law against going to buy a boat in unsuitable places. I can see it now "You have been found guilty of attempting to buy a project boat without knowing your arse from your exhaust elbow..."

 

[Tranona]

Thank you for your honest appraisal of the issues within my thread. I appreciate this content and help.

However, I must draw your attention to the the "Market" as you say....

In my opinion, there are issues with inconsistencies brought about by rogue operators shall we say. As in any business, there are the "cowboy" element which, as you rightly point out, "If it looks dodgy, don't get involved".
That's OK if you are fortunate enough to recognise that there is a dodgy dealer, broker, surveyor etc.
So, what I am proposing is, (and if it does become part of the nanny state, all the better for the quality systems of the UK and the reassurance to it's buying public) If a person wishes to set up in business selling boats (no matter what values), there should be legislation that governs this. And yes, if this means specific training and qualifications and on-going inspections and re-training, then so be it. Of course, I am not that wet behind the ears to think that this is a perfect and trouble free solution. But it will go most of the way to iron out the massive undulations within the marine buying world (because it does not exist, does not mean it is not required - if this was actually the case, we would still be living in caves.)
I mentioned in my original thread that I am seeking my first boat purchase. I have in fact been sailing on various vessels as both skipper and crew around the UK and Atlantic circuits etc for many years. My experience is that of "using" a boat and since I have no experience of construction and or design I tend to collate information prior to making the ultimate decision on any aspect of life.

Finally, no matter how these boats are being sold, legislation is needed to enable informed decisions to be made by the buying public.
If, however, you are against this suggestion (for your reason of not wanting a nanny state, perhaps), It would be seem apparent that there IS a problem with industry guidelines for example.

There is legislation - masses of it - some would argue too much. This business has to operate within the law. If it is a trader it is subject to a whole raft of consumer orientated legislation it has to comply with. If it is an agent then it is caveat emptor - you are dealing with a private person and your transaction is subject to the terms and conditions of the contract between you.

Not sure what you mean by "undulations" in the market - thousands of boats change hands every year to the satisfaction of buyers and sellers. This particular firm has chosen to operate in a specific section of the market and is doing nothing illegal. If you don't like it, don't deal with them. It should be pretty obvious to anyone, whether they know anything about boats or not that if a seller is overtly describing boats as defective and in need of substantial work and financial expenditure that it is not for a first time buyer who wants a functioning boat. There is, and always has been a role for this kind of business in the market, just as there are car salvage yards, secondhand furniture shops, building salvage yards and so on.

If you do a bit of research you will find that the industry as a whole (through the BMF and other bodies such as the YDSA) has an extensive training and education programme for people in the industry. So, if you want to buy a boat deal with organisations who are members of such bodies.

 

[Chrissie]

I am Endeavour Surveyours, called that because I was working at Endeavour Yard 2 to 5 years ago, then that particular surveyor came along, before that, he was working in marketing as far as I can gather. So he set up as a surveyor, no qualifications or experience, though to read his website you would think very differently.

I was very worried at the time, not wanting to be associated with him, because of locality and my company name, but found there was nothing that the associations can do about it, anyone can set up as a surveyor if they want.

I am fully qualified, and at present I am also studying full time for an Engineering Degree in Yacht Production and Surveying,as an extra qualification, but my business was very badly affected by his marketing style of, "come to me and I will undercut any other surveyors quote" also the other businesses at the yard recommend each other, with cash incentives.

He wont be paying a minimum of £1600 a year PI insurance, because he cant be covered for his survey work, but remember, you as customers drive the standands, if customers settle for untrained surveyors, then they will prosper!

 

[Glynny]

I think it is fine as it is

there are no industry guidelines

if you know as much as you clearly do and are so well qualified and experienced why were you looking at Boatbreakers and then feigning surprise when they tried to sell you a heap of junk at a heap of junk price.

you went to the equivalent of a car dealer - the equivalent of a bloke with two lock-ups and and ebay account and then expect to legislate him out of business

just out of interest.... do you have many RYA tickets?

Dylan

Thanks for your input on this to which I have taken note.

Unfortunately, you have taken my queries totally out of context. I have not feigned any surprise to either this issue or the dealer himself.
You have said it yourself - there are no industry guidelines.
I fully intend to source a yacht for my family however, no matter where I choose to make that purchase, in 2012, I should be able to have the confidence in enabling a satisfactory transaction without the hinderance of having NO Industry Guidelines. Industry Guidelines have proved themselves over and over again in various other "Industries" throughout Europe and the UK. They are here to uphold the quality systems and therefore, reduce the element of doubt.
Yes, buying anything that is second hand and used has attracted many unsavoury characters to many industries over the years. The courts are full with buyers suing sellers (and visa versa).
I started this thread to, hopefully, glean information for both myself and, maybe others who are finding it useful to interact with like-minded sailers.
It would appear that there are many out there who are quite hesitant at accepting this "safety curtain". Obviously, I don't know the reasons for this and I don't want to "Assume" the reason.

Sorry, I don't know the relevance of your request about my RYA tickets. Please explain....

 

[lw395]

If you want everything to be just-so and consumer proof, how about buying a new boat?

There are two reasons for getting a survey
1) To check the condition of the boat for your own needs
2) To satisfy the insurance company.

Before buying a boat, one would be wise to speak to an insurance broker to make sure your boat is an insurable proposition and on what terms. That includes, what survey they need, whether they will accept it being kept on your mooring all year/which months, whether they pay in full for old bits of rig etc.

If you don't know ever so much about boats, in terms of repair and maintenance, I strongly advise buying something that is (at least at first sight) in full working order.
If you have to pay for what might be DIY jobs, a boat needing work can become a very expensive proposition.

It is a buyer's market.
There are some good cheap boats out there.
Now is a good time to be looking, it gives you until about xmas to do the deal, then a little time to get ready for a full season.

FWIW I bought my first yacht for about £10k and did not have a survey.
I did not have any problems getting insurance. Things may have changed.

 

[Plevier]

Finally, no matter how these boats are being sold, legislation is needed to enable informed decisions to be made by the buying public.
If, however, you are against this suggestion (for your reason of not wanting a nanny state, perhaps), It would be seem apparent that there IS a problem with industry guidelines for example.

I'm really not at all clear on what you are asking for.

If you think "someone" should protect you against realising that a 40 year old boat at a low price with declared damage from an outfit specialising in problem/salvage boats is not ready to sail away with your family on it, no I disagree. Where's your common sense? Would you buy a written off car from a salvage dealer and expect to drive it? As has been said, if you don't have the skills, you shouldn't be going anywhere near it. Does "someone" have to point that out to you? I see no problem in such businesses occupying a valid market position and no need for regulation. If they commit fraud there is adequate legislation already.

If you are saying nobody should be able to call themselves a Marine Surveyor without an appropriate qualification or membership of an approved body, you can argue a case. However it's a small market sector and only a few people within it are affected - those who unlike yourself do no advance research - and there are far larger issues to be attended to first, like any mechanic/service technician being able to call himself an Engineer. Does the public understand the difference between that and Chartered Engineer? No. (No disrespect to mechanics and service technicians who do vital work, but it's different - it's like a nurse calling him/herself a Doctor.)

The government is occupying itself with some pretty stupid things ahead of real priorities already, no need for more on the list!

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Glynny I would put my faith in well recommended surveyors to ensure a fair and honest survey. I don't believe "Industry Guidelines" or even professional bodies by themselves can offer reliable assurance that a service will be delivered competently.

I would recommend that once you have found a yacht that interests you such that you wish to make an offer, then a query posted here requesting a recommendation for a surveyor in the area where the yacht is located, would give you a reliable surveyor. Such is the size and popularity of this forum consensus on such matters can be apparent.

 

[lw395]

I'm with Dylan on this.

Sounds like a perfectly legitimate business. I know a few people who would be in their element clambering around a place like that looking for bargains they could restore.

Just because it is not suitable for you there is no reason to ban it.

Maybe there should be a law against going to buy a boat in unsuitable places. I can see it now "You have been found guilty of attempting to buy a project boat without knowing your arse from your exhaust elbow..."

I think perhaps we should separate the business of selling 'project' boats from the business of selling 'surveys' which are not allegedly independent or backed by a suitable qualification.

 

[prv]

I should be able to have the confidence in enabling a satisfactory transaction without the hinderance of having NO Industry Guidelines. Industry Guidelines have proved themselves over and over again in various other "Industries" throughout Europe and the UK. They are here to uphold the quality systems and therefore, reduce the element of doubt.

I still don't understand what it is you want the law to require.

All the normal law of contract and of business-to-consumer sales already applies, of course. You seem to want something extra and specific to the leisure marine market, but you haven't given any hint as to what or why.

Pete

 

[Plevier]

Glynny I would put my faith in well recommended surveyors to ensure a fair and honest survey. I don't believe "Industry Guidelines" or even professional bodies by themselves can offer reliable assurance that a service will be delivered competently.

I would recommend that once you have found a yacht that interests you such that you wish to make an offer, then a query posted here requesting a recommendation for a surveyor in the area where the yacht is located, would give you a reliable surveyor. Such is the size and popularity of this forum consensus on such matters can be apparent.

Reasonable comment in normal circumstances, but have you looked at the dealer's website, and (assuming Dylan identified it correctly) the boat the OP is looking at?
It would be like an AA inspection on a written off car from a salvage dealer!
Anyone with the skills to take it on wouldn't need a survey, they would do their own.
It's a side issue but (again assuming this is the correct boat) the OP seems to have unrealistic expectations re budget for something in usable order.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks for your input on this to which I have taken note.

Unfortunately, you have taken my queries totally out of context. I have not feigned any surprise to either this issue or the dealer himself.
You have said it yourself - there are no industry guidelines.
I fully intend to source a yacht for my family however, no matter where I choose to make that purchase, in 2012, I should be able to have the confidence in enabling a satisfactory transaction without the hinderance of having NO Industry Guidelines. Industry Guidelines have proved themselves over and over again in various other "Industries" throughout Europe and the UK. They are here to uphold the quality systems and therefore, reduce the element of doubt.
Yes, buying anything that is second hand and used has attracted many unsavoury characters to many industries over the years. The courts are full with buyers suing sellers (and visa versa).
I started this thread to, hopefully, glean information for both myself and, maybe others who are finding it useful to interact with like-minded sailers.
It would appear that there are many out there who are quite hesitant at accepting this "safety curtain". Obviously, I don't know the reasons for this and I don't want to "Assume" the reason.

Sorry, I don't know the relevance of your request about my RYA tickets. Please explain....

Don't know how you get the impression there are no "guidelines". How on earth do you think thousands of boats change hands every year if there were not a recognised process for the activity?

You have the RYA information - presumably you have bought the little book. This will talk you through the process.

Leaving aside new boats, which is only a tiny fraction of the market, the vast majority of sales are between private individuals and are covered by the framework of contract law. The RYA will provide you with a well proven model contract if you are buying privately from an individual. If you deal through a broker, and many private sellers choose to have a broker represent them, the broker will use the same sort of contract and securely handle the money side of things. You can find out more about how this works by looking on the ABY/YDSA site. You will also find there a list of accredited independent surveyors to represent your interests, as the broker is representing the seller.

All of this is governed by a whole range of laws and processes for resolving disputes, but doubt you will find many disputes that go to the courts as the system is robust and well understood.

If you do buy from a trader, and this is not common in the marine trade, then the transaction is covered by all the consumer law that covers any other retail transaction.

So instead of spouting off about lack of controls, suggest you do a bit of homework and find out what the real situation is rather than imagining something that does not exist.


It is really difficult to see what "guidelines" would add to a well established and robust system. The process is transparent and works.

 

[jonic]

Thank you for your honest appraisal of the issues within my thread. I appreciate this content and help.

However, I must draw your attention to the the "Market" as you say....

In my opinion, there are issues with inconsistencies brought about by rogue operators shall we say. As in any business, there are the "cowboy" element which, as you rightly point out, "If it looks dodgy, don't get involved".
That's OK if you are fortunate enough to recognise that there is a dodgy dealer, broker, surveyor etc.
So, what I am proposing is, (and if it does become part of the nanny state, all the better for the quality systems of the UK and the reassurance to it's buying public) If a person wishes to set up in business selling boats (no matter what values), there should be legislation that governs this. And yes, if this means specific training and qualifications and on-going inspections and re-training, then so be it.

Yacht broking is covered by the general trading legislation of Misrepresentation Act of 1967 and the Unfair Contract Terms Act of 1997. Along with money laundering and fraud legislation.

The government does not insist that yacht brokers undergo training or are required by law to be registered.

However to be a registered member of ABYA it is a requirement that after training and once in membership that:

• The broker will be required to maintain their legal and technical knowledge and skills through a process of Continuous Professional Development
  
• The broker works to the ABYA code of practice
  
• A completely separate client account is in place (that does not form part of the day to day business and can not be used to offset or be combined with any other account ) with written confirmation from the account holding bank
  
• And that the business is covered at all times by professional indemnity insurance & public liability insurance

There are three main grades of membership- Probationary, Accredited and Full. The ABYA website has a facility for checking if a broker is registered (with an in date membership) and at what grade

http://www.abya.co.uk/brokers/

The parent organisation of ABYA (the YBDSA) has been in existence for 100 years this year.

Further details here http://www.abya.co.uk/about-abya.aspx

Look for the ABYA logo and check via the ABYA website that the broker is up to date and registered.

 

[wotayottie]

Why is this industry so fragmented a with so many "cottage industry" wannabees? I work in education as a Lecturer. I am inspected and inspected again on a regular basis and, to be honest, I welcome this aspect. I am sent on regular training courses to enable latest cohesion with mandatory technique and methodology.

Boat sales / surveyors etc all work in the private sector where costs matter. You work in the public sector where for all the talk about it, costs dont matter and the taxpayer picks up the bill. If we tried to organise the private sector in the way you describe and that the education system works, we would be totally uncompetitive and face economic collapse. And I write that not only as a retired successful businessman but also as an ex university director. I saw how universities actually work.

But your worries are to some degree overdone. As in any purchase, caveat emptor applies. No one and no system can protect a fool. You need to take care to protect yourself and that doesnt mean relying just on surveyors. In the real world your chance of getting recompense for a messed up survey is very limited indeed. Never get into the situation of needing the law because you will find that it is designed to help lawyers not you.

Boats are simple. Read up about the model you are thinking of buying. Talk to other owners on the forums. Then go over the boat with a fine toothcomb even before you get anywhere near a surveyor not only so you have questions to ask him but also because you have two things he doesnt have. A vested interest and time to look carefully.

 

[jonic]

Boat sales / surveyors etc all work in the private sector where costs matter. You work in the public sector where for all the talk about it, costs dont matter and the taxpayer picks up the bill. If we tried to organise the private sector in the way you describe and that the education system works, we would be totally uncompetitive and face economic collapse. And I write that not only as a retired successful businessman but also as an ex university director. I saw how universities actually work.

But your worries are to some degree overdone. As in any purchase, caveat emptor applies. No one and no system can protect a fool. You need to take care to protect yourself and that doesnt mean relying just on surveyors. In the real world your chance of getting recompense for a messed up survey is very limited indeed. Never get into the situation of needing the law because you will find that it is designed to help lawyers not you.

Boats are simple. Read up about the model you are thinking of buying. Talk to other owners on the forums. Then go over the boat with a fine toothcomb even before you get anywhere near a surveyor not only so you have questions to ask him but also because you have two things he doesnt have. A vested interest and time to look carefully.

+1

 

[Plevier]

Boat sales / surveyors etc all work in the private sector where costs matter. You work in the public sector where for all the talk about it, costs dont matter and the taxpayer picks up the bill. If we tried to organise the private sector in the way you describe and that the education system works, we would be totally uncompetitive and face economic collapse. And I write that not only as a retired successful businessman but also as an ex university director. I saw how universities actually work.

But your worries are to some degree overdone. As in any purchase, caveat emptor applies. No one and no system can protect a fool. You need to take care to protect yourself and that doesnt mean relying just on surveyors. In the real world your chance of getting recompense for a messed up survey is very limited indeed. Never get into the situation of needing the law because you will find that it is designed to help lawyers not you.

Boats are simple. Read up about the model you are thinking of buying. Talk to other owners on the forums. Then go over the boat with a fine toothcomb even before you get anywhere near a surveyor not only so you have questions to ask him but also because you have two things he doesnt have. A vested interest and time to look carefully.

+1
(In my case "university employee" not "university director" in paragraph 1 but agree 100%. Waste, inefficiency and complacency beyond belief. It's getting a little bit tougher now though. Oops Fred Drift strikes again!)

 

[jwilson]

Hi all, I want to buy a boat. I have been advised by the RYA to go down a certain route which was given to me in a numerical order. One of the steps suggests getting a survey by a reputable surveyor.
I looked at the various organisations that a UK surveyor can be trained by and, ultimately, can become a member of. I think you know who I am talking about....
I then came by a boat which was being sold at Endeavour Quay in Gosport. A really nice yacht with 5 berths and reasonable fit-out. It was being sold by a company called The Boat Breakers . com. I asked the various and typical questions (questions that are advised by the RYA). The company then suggested that I use their in-house Survey team prior to purchase. I asked if they had any of the "normal" accreditations to the governing bodies of the Surveying world.
Their answer - NO, we don't need them.

I asked my insurance company if they would recognise this type of survey.
Their answer - NO.

Why is this industry so fragmented a with so many "cottage industry" wannabees? I work in education as a Lecturer. I am inspected and inspected again on a regular basis and, to be honest, I welcome this aspect. I am sent on regular training courses to enable latest cohesion with mandatory technique and methodology.I still want to own my own little boat however, I feel that, whilst I have endeavoured to research the subject and become intimate with certain brands that I feel will suffice for my family needs, I am being thrown to the mercy of the lions by not having a proper regarded system that is universal (at least within europe) to serve the buying public. One can spend a small fortune on a vessel that, having been "surveyed" prior to purchase or even just for the purpose of Insurance valuation, then all falls to rat**** when it is found that the "survey" is not worth even the paper it is written upon?
Why are companies such as the above being allowed to trade?

It certainly takes the shine off the dream.

I would like to point out to you that in addition to the very unusual addition of a mini-ships-wheel in the cockpit, that there is something very suspect going on around the bow, though the photos will not stay still long enough for me to see properly.

Pay a local surveyor of your choice for an hours work going to the boat, looking over her for 15-30 minutes, and reporting back to you verbally. There are ultra qualified surveyors, with lots of letters after their names, and there are also a few that have no formal qualifications, but have spent half a lifetime working in boatyards. Most are competent to tell you whether there is something horribly wrong after a very short time.

If the report back is generally OK (in this case I suspect it will not be) then get him to do a full survey, if you are not competent to assess things yourself.

By the way I totally disagree with your call for more legislation in your later post. There does have to be some sense of 'caveat emptor' and a 26 ft boat with decent looking upholstery and a fairly clean looking 1997 engine will typically be more than £3,500 if in good condition.

If you would like to see a similar aged and sized boat that I am fairly confident will not be found to have anything horribly wrong on survey - look at http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/m341110/m341110.htm - unfortunately it is more than £3,500, which may hint at something about the Mystere.