Buying caution!!!

[Glynny]

I am Endeavour Surveyours, called that because I was working at Endeavour Yard 2 to 5 years ago, then that particular surveyor came along, before that, he was working in marketing as far as I can gather. So he set up as a surveyor, no qualifications or experience, though to read his website you would think very differently.

I was very worried at the time, not wanting to be associated with him, because of locality and my company name, but found there was nothing that the associations can do about it, anyone can set up as a surveyor if they want.

I am fully qualified, and at present I am also studying full time for an Engineering Degree in Yacht Production and Surveying,as an extra qualification, but my business was very badly affected by his marketing style of, "come to me and I will undercut any other surveyors quote" also the other businesses at the yard recommend each other, with cash incentives.

He wont be paying a minimum of £1600 a year PI insurance, because he cant be covered for his survey work, but remember, you as customers drive the standands, if customers settle for untrained surveyors, then they will prosper!

Hi Chrissie

Thank you for your input on this one. I value your comments and must agree with the content that you have given.
I seem to have rattled some cages so to speak and it was not my intention to do so but, as with anything that is not regulated in this country, it will attract the unscrupulous who are just out to rip off the british buying public.
On the other hand, I feel for your circumstances especially as the associations can do nothing about it as you point out.
Many genuine surveyors who are affiliated with the correct associations have nothing to fear apart from a downturn in business which as you rightly say, is born through greed and ignorance. I consider that your services are far more usable and valuable to me knowing that I can approach any Insurance company after having a survey done with the safety net of these associations. Not all boat buying newbies are aware of this. So, maybe it would be prudent to have your recognised associations work with RYA to halt the deluge of "cowboy" operators. Just a thought !!!

Thank you again for this input - I will certainly remember your service and maybe look forward to working with you in an attempt to source my boat.

 

[Tranona]

Hi Chrissie

Not all boat buying newbies are aware of this. So, maybe it would be prudent to have your recognised associations work with RYA to halt the deluge of "cowboy" operators. Just a thought !!!

Well, if they are in the least bit interested in buying a boat and are going to commit considerable sums of money then the least they should do is find out a bit about it. As I said above £6.95 on the RYA book would have sorted all your questions.

Discovering that insurance companies require surveys from a qualified surveyor rather suggests that contrary to what you are saying. There are very clear "guidelines" on what is acceptable.

The issue about whether people should be prevented from entering a business because they do not have qualifications is something that arises in all sorts of trades. Provided he does not represent himself as holding a qualification that he does not have, there is nothing to stop him. He stands or falls on his ability to satisfy his customers' needs.

 

[Glynny]

If you want everything to be just-so and consumer proof, how about buying a new boat?

There are two reasons for getting a survey
1) To check the condition of the boat for your own needs
2) To satisfy the insurance company.

Before buying a boat, one would be wise to speak to an insurance broker to make sure your boat is an insurable proposition and on what terms. That includes, what survey they need, whether they will accept it being kept on your mooring all year/which months, whether they pay in full for old bits of rig etc.

If you don't know ever so much about boats, in terms of repair and maintenance, I strongly advise buying something that is (at least at first sight) in full working order.
If you have to pay for what might be DIY jobs, a boat needing work can become a very expensive proposition.

It is a buyer's market.
There are some good cheap boats out there.
Now is a good time to be looking, it gives you until about xmas to do the deal, then a little time to get ready for a full season.

FWIW I bought my first yacht for about £10k and did not have a survey.
I did not have any problems getting insurance. Things may have changed.

Hello lW

Thank you for your comments and advise to which I find very useful and encouraging.

With regards to wanting everything to be "just so and consumer proof", I have actually looked at 3 new boats which seemed to offer the level of accommodation for my family however, and after speaking with a qualified and experienced surveyor who just happened to be passing at this year's Southampton boat show, he suggested that I look elsewhere due to his experience of these particular brands having poor reputations due to quality control issues in the manufacturers that all just happened to be in Poland.
He pointed out very poor design flaws in important areas such mast steps and transoms where a rudder stock passes through. There were lots of evidence of this in all of the boats concerned.
So, my decision was made to buy used and spend a few quid on upgrades and refurbishments. Cue the surveyor......

I have spoke with 6 insurance companies who specialise in marine policies and, more importantly, who are experienced at marine crisis and claims. They all advise on qualified surveys being carried out. They made it very clear that without qualifications, they will either, not provide the cover or, one suggested that he would take my premium money but, in the event of a claim, would not pay out at all.

Let the buyer beware however, as another participant to this thread has suggested, the buying public are driving the system and this obviously has the impact of allowing unscrupulous services.

Such is life, eh?

 

[Glynny]

I still don't understand what it is you want the law to require.

All the normal law of contract and of business-to-consumer sales already applies, of course. You seem to want something extra and specific to the leisure marine market, but you haven't given any hint as to what or why.

Pete

Hi Pete

You tell me...

 

[Beadle]

"It certainly takes the shine off the dream. "

It doesn't need to.

I had a surveyor look at 3 or 4 blisters on the bottom of my boat

Without any reference to me he booked the boat into a local company for a full strip of the hull and replacement of gel coat - some £5k of work.

We had words

Some hard ones

I found a specialist in fibre glass laminates and described what had happened and asked his opinion.

He gave me 2 opinions. The first I won't repeat here on the surveyor.

The second was to carefully grind away the blister and the material underneath. Wash the area thoroughly with clean water and leave to dry thoroughly and fill with resin. Sand smooth when dry.

Sounded good to me, so I rang a well known resin manufacturer, ended up speaking to his area rep who came and had a look at the boat, laughed a bit, had a grovel about in his car boot and gave me a little tube of filler, and described how to use it.

Three years later when I sold the boat it was surveyed by a really professional surveyor. He drew a sort of two dimensional picture of the hull and took a systematic series of measurements around the entire hull, all noted on his picture.

All clear and complementary comments.

If I'd listened to the first surveyor I'd have been £5k out of pocket.

I would suggest you buy a moisture meter and spend an hour or so going around the boat and so what you find - its much cheaper than a surveyor.

 

[prv]

I still don't understand what it is you want the law to require.
[...]
You seem to want something extra and specific to the leisure marine market, but you haven't given any hint as to what or why.

Hi Pete

You tell me...

Now I'm utterly baffled. How can I tell you what you want?

Pete

 

[Glynny]

"It certainly takes the shine off the dream. "

It doesn't need to.

I had a surveyor look at 3 or 4 blisters on the bottom of my boat

Without any reference to me he booked the boat into a local company for a full strip of the hull and replacement of gel coat - some £5k of work.

We had words

Some hard ones

I found a specialist in fibre glass laminates and described what had happened and asked his opinion.

He gave me 2 opinions. The first I won't repeat here on the surveyor.

The second was to carefully grind away the blister and the material underneath. Wash the area thoroughly with clean water and leave to dry thoroughly and fill with resin. Sand smooth when dry.

Sounded good to me, so I rang a well known resin manufacturer, ended up speaking to his area rep who came and had a look at the boat, laughed a bit, had a grovel about in his car boot and gave me a little tube of filler, and described how to use it.

Three years later when I sold the boat it was surveyed by a really professional surveyor. He drew a sort of two dimensional picture of the hull and took a systematic series of measurements around the entire hull, all noted on his picture.

All clear and complementary comments.

If I'd listened to the first surveyor I'd have been £5k out of pocket.

I would suggest you buy a moisture meter and spend an hour or so going around the boat and so what you find - its much cheaper than a surveyor.

Hi Beadle

Thank you so much for this constructive suggestion.

Regards

 

[Deleted member 36384]

... Three years later when I sold the boat it was surveyed by a really professional surveyor. He drew a sort of two dimensional picture of the hull and took a systematic series of measurements around the entire hull, all noted on his picture.

If I'd listened to the first surveyor I'd have been £5k out of pocket.

I would suggest you buy a moisture meter and spend an hour or so going around the boat and so what you find - its much cheaper than a surveyor.

Your story suggests that the OP obtains a reliable surveyor and not buy a moisture meter. A moisture meter is useless unless one understands how to use it correctly to interpret moisture content which is not, by itself, an indicator of Osmosis.

 

[Tranona]

Let the buyer beware however, as another participant to this thread has suggested, the buying public are driving the system and this obviously has the impact of allowing unscrupulous services.

Such is life, eh?

Don't see how you come to that conclusion - rather the opposite. You have consulted a professional and he has given you advice. The public does drive the system. Those who do not satisfy buyers go out of business.

Somewhat confused that at one point you are looking at buying a new boat (design and quality of which is heavily regulated by the RCD) and the next talking about (not) buying a clapped out old wreck (described as such) from a breakers yard.

As many others have said, draw yourself up a shortlist of potential boats, find out about them- loads of sources, magazines, owners associations, even ever helpful people on the forum. Look at a few to get a feel for what you can expect and if you find one that you think suits, make an offer and get a survey. Few people are unscrupulous in this business. Every seller is at some point a buyer so it is not in their interest to exploit anybody. There are plenty of qualified people (brokers and surveyors) to help you make a good decision.

I you give some idea of the sort of boat you are looking for you will get plenty of advice here.

 

[chinita]

RINA might take objection to that.

I'd be surprised if an insurance company wasn't perfectly happy with an IIMS surveyor, although my own opinion based on encounters with a very small number of them is not great.

Agreed. I was not deliberately excluding these agencies. I was in a bit of a hurry and was just trying to steer the OP towards a simple and effective solution.

 

[chinita]

but you dont need to insure your boat, legally,

True, legally.

However, I have not come across a marina which did not insist on 3rd party insurance. Claiming that it was not a legal requirement would not cut much ice.

Not just marinas, I keep my boat on mooring in Brightlingsea and the Harbour Commissioners require insurance. Even if you want a grotty mud berth with access plus and minus one hour. Quite right IMO.

I only insure my boats 3rd party. Largely because - in the past - I would have had difficulty meeting the terms of fully comp. I would remain insured, wherever I was, on principle as I put myself in the position of someone who had been dinged by an uninsured boater - not very gruntled.

 

[dylanwinter]

Searching for Boats

Hi all, I want to buy a boat. I have been advised by the RYA to go down a certain route which was given to me in a numerical order. One of the steps suggests getting a survey by a reputable surveyor.
I looked at the various organisations that a UK surveyor can be trained by and, ultimately, can become a member of. I think you know who I am talking about....
I then came by a boat which was being sold at Endeavour Quay in Gosport. A really nice yacht with 5 berths and reasonable fit-out. It was being sold by a company called The Boat Breakers . com. I asked the various and typical questions (questions that are advised by the RYA). The company then suggested that I use their in-house Survey team prior to purchase. I asked if they had any of the "normal" accreditations to the governing bodies of the Surveying world.
Their answer - NO, we don't need them.

I asked my insurance company if they would recognise this type of survey.
Their answer - NO.

Why is this industry so fragmented a with so many "cottage industry" wannabees? I work in education as a Lecturer. I am inspected and inspected again on a regular basis and, to be honest, I welcome this aspect. I am sent on regular training courses to enable latest cohesion with mandatory technique and methodology.I still want to own my own little boat however, I feel that, whilst I have endeavoured to research the subject and become intimate with certain brands that I feel will suffice for my family needs, I am being thrown to the mercy of the lions by not having a proper regarded system that is universal (at least within europe) to serve the buying public. One can spend a small fortune on a vessel that, having been "surveyed" prior to purchase or even just for the purpose of Insurance valuation, then all falls to rat**** when it is found that the "survey" is not worth even the paper it is written upon?
Why are companies such as the above being allowed to trade?

It certainly takes the shine off the dream.

Now that I have re-read you initial post more carefully I see now that you have an excellent point, well expressed.

and I think I can now see where you are coming from


I was also very sad to read your other thread back in April telling us of your terrible experience and the way you had two days of your time wasted by yet another broker

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313166

I am sorry that you have been dealt such a tough hand by people who are trying to sell yachts and should be offering a good service to those, such as yourself, an experienced yachtsman and boat builder looking to buy your first boat to be able to finally live the dream

the fact that you are an academic with a business background is a wonderful combination to have and your students will learn a lot from some-one who has experience on both sides of the fence.


I tip my hat to you and welcome you to the Forums and the friendly vitual company of other sailors

It is also good to know that you are prepared to cast your incredibly wide wide when it comes to buying your first boat and living the dream

Geography, size and price are are obviously less important than getting the right boat

we must all have dreams and those with dreams deserve to be treated with respect

so I regret my earlier post which must have come across as being overly suspicious and unwelcoming

I sincerely hope that you manage to find your dream boat

I admire you open mindedness when it comes to making the choice

to be looking at everything from a Fisher 30 to this heap of junk at £3,500 shows a perspicacity that is both admirable and remarkable

I sincerely hope you find the right boat for you and your family and please keep us posted on your final choice and how you get on

I look forward to hearing more about you and your further sailing adventures


Dylan

 

[Deleted member 36384]

I Am Reminded

.... I am sorry that you have been dealt such a tough hand by people who are trying to sell yachts and should be offering a good service to those, such as yourself, an experienced yachtsman looking to buy your first boat and live the dream .........

It is also good to know that you are prepared to cast your net wide when it comes to buying your first boat and living the dream .....

we must all have dreams and those with dreams deserve to be treated with respect .......

I sincerely hope that you manage to find your dream boat

I admire you open mindedness when it comes to making the choice

to be looking at everything from a Fisher 30 to this heap of junk at £3,500 shows an open mindedness about boats that is admirable .....

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

 

[chinita]

Extraordinary. Having looked at the link provided by Dylan I would have thought that all the questions in the OP have been answered.

 

[dylanwinter]

is there anything we can do to help

Extraordinary. Having looked at the link provided by Dylan I would have thought that all the questions in the OP have been answered.

I am pleased that you have been offered the assistance of a yacht surveyor

can any of us help you to find the boat you require for disabled children

a bit more information about the sort of boat you are after and where you will be basing it and I am sure that some-one on here would be able to help you to track down just the right boat to help you live your dream

Dylan

 

[Bilgediver]

I thought the the survey was primarily for the insurance company

But I think it is a good idea that all surveyors should be well trained, qualified and insured

Dylan

The survey is for both owner and insurance. Also remember that you pay the bill so he is working for you. I am always in attendance during a survey and have been known to question incorrect comments at the time and get them fixed before the report is written.

The reports for an important part of the boats history and should be kept. They will show faults you might not have been aware of and give you bargaining power to reduce your offer or have the cost of fixing the faults included in the price.

Always select your own surveyor and ensure he has indemnity insurance as otherwise his report may be worthless.

Note that all reports will include Weasly words stating he saw what he could and there might be faults h couldn t see such as high rigging items if the mast was in place etc etc etc.

I usually find more faults than the surveyor however it is best to get a third party ispection for purchase.Some insurance companies will accept self surveys on boats of value up to £10,000 for periodic age related surveys.

 

[jac]

This must be a Troll.

Quite good and dedicated to have resurrected the troll ID from months ago but still a troll none the less.

To answer the question though - Don;t think we need more legislation on yacht sales - however I would like to see additional regulation on COllege and university lecturers. Maybe something like an Annual MOT of their sanity and ability to live and cope in the real world - you know - if they think that NUt etc make sense then automatic referral to psychiatrist, compulsory insurance to cover them teaching generations of youngsters useless stuff, immediate striking off if they think that they deserve better Ts&Cs than those working in private sector.

 

[Tranona]

Thanks to Dylan for reference back to the OPs earlier thread on the subject.

In that thread he was a builder who had just sold his boat and was looking for a Fisher 30 to take disabled children out. By his (uncorroborated) account he was misled by a broker over the description of a boat.

Now 6 months later he is a college lecturer, new to boating, looking for a family boat. looked at new boats at Southampton and did not like them. For some reason has seen a clapped out project boat in a breakers and starts a tirade about how this firm should not be in business. Makes a big issue that insurance companies ask for surveys from recognised surveyors - so what, pretty common knowledge.

Methinks a Troll. Single issue person who makes up his story as he goes along, forgetting that it is different from his earlier story.

BTW for those of you who don't have the patience to read his original thread, he claimed 196 PM messages in 2 days from people who supported him. Naturally no sign of them when challenged to share them. Does not square with only 33 people actually posting on the thread for a total of 123 posts.

 

[dylanwinter]

took a while chaps

Thanks to Dylan for reference back to the OPs earlier thread on the subject.

In that thread he was a builder who had just sold his boat and was looking for a Fisher 30 to take disabled children out. By his (uncorroborated) account he was misled by a broker over the description of a boat.

Now 6 months later he is a college lecturer, new to boating, looking for a family boat. looked at new boats at Southampton and did not like them. For some reason has seen a clapped out project boat in a breakers and starts a tirade about how this firm should not be in business. Makes a big issue that insurance companies ask for surveys from recognised surveyors - so what, pretty common knowledge.

Methinks a Troll. Single issue person who makes up his story as he goes along, forgetting that it is different from his earlier story.

BTW for those of you who don't have the patience to read his original thread, he claimed 196 PM messages in 2 days from people who supported him. Naturally no sign of them when challenged to share them.

actually I suspect that the internal inconsistencies lead to something rather different from a mere troll out for a laugh

there are some well respected companies that have been named in a bad light in these posts

and that is a shame is the narratives would seem to be flawed

I myself spend a lot of time at the Boatshed website and although I have never bought a boat from them they seem to represent a great way of selling boats

the effort they put into the images is wonderful and they have the decency to leave the images up there long after the boat has been sold

the boat breakers also seem like great blokes who tell you like it is

this is may be a sad day for the forum

perhaps a lot of people have been decieved in some way

IMHO

however,

on the other hand perhaps this lovely man - an experienced sailor looking to live the dream and buy his first boat for himself and his family, an academic with business experience who seeks boats to give disabled children a good time might step offer some more information and we can help him to avoid the sort of problems he has experienced in the past

let us not pre-judge

but his story does not seem to hang together as we have heard it so far

Dylan

 

[Tranona]

He rejected all offers of assistance last time and refused to answer questions. No different this time.