Buying caution!!!

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Glynny

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Hi all, I want to buy a boat. I have been advised by the RYA to go down a certain route which was given to me in a numerical order. One of the steps suggests getting a survey by a reputable surveyor.
I looked at the various organisations that a UK surveyor can be trained by and, ultimately, can become a member of. I think you know who I am talking about....
I then came by a boat which was being sold at Endeavour Quay in Gosport. A really nice yacht with 5 berths and reasonable fit-out. It was being sold by a company called The Boat Breakers . com. I asked the various and typical questions (questions that are advised by the RYA). The company then suggested that I use their in-house Survey team prior to purchase. I asked if they had any of the "normal" accreditations to the governing bodies of the Surveying world.
Their answer - NO, we don't need them.

I asked my insurance company if they would recognise this type of survey.
Their answer - NO.

Why is this industry so fragmented a with so many "cottage industry" wannabees? I work in education as a Lecturer. I am inspected and inspected again on a regular basis and, to be honest, I welcome this aspect. I am sent on regular training courses to enable latest cohesion with mandatory technique and methodology.I still want to own my own little boat however, I feel that, whilst I have endeavoured to research the subject and become intimate with certain brands that I feel will suffice for my family needs, I am being thrown to the mercy of the lions by not having a proper regarded system that is universal (at least within europe) to serve the buying public. One can spend a small fortune on a vessel that, having been "surveyed" prior to purchase or even just for the purpose of Insurance valuation, then all falls to rat**** when it is found that the "survey" is not worth even the paper it is written upon?
Why are companies such as the above being allowed to trade?

It certainly takes the shine off the dream.
 
or

you can buy a cheap little boat

use your common sense to see if anything is loose or rusted

ask a few questions on the web

not have it surveyed

and insure it third party

you might even enjoy sailing it

for me it is one of the glories of sailing in the UK

yours Dylan

PS

I note with interest that you have been looking for a boat for a long time and have had some serious troubles and frustrations

back in April

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313166

you were looking for a large boat suitable for giving disabled children a good holiday

and were not best served by a broker

that is a shame that someone with such ideals should have been frustrated


now your career has moved on. You are an experienced yachtsman and an academic with experience in industry looking for your first boat to enjoy with your family

life takes some strange twists for us all

I wish you the very best of luck and hope that you find the right broker who will help you to live your dream

I look forward to hearing more of your adventures in the coming months

they should prove to me most edifying
 
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You are making a mountain out of a molehill. There are several recognised surveyor organisations and you would be advised to use a surveyor who is a member of one of them, not least because they are required to have professional indemnity insurance.

The survey is for your benefit, to ensure the boat you are buying is as the vendor is describing it. Therefore it is you that chooses and pays the surveyor.

Have a look on the ABYA site, for example and you will see the membership requirements and the qualifications of the members. There is no difficulty (particularly in the Solent area) finding a well qualified surveyor acceptable to insurance companies.
 
really

Tranona said:
You are making a mountain out of a molehill. There are several recognised surveyor organisations and you would be advised to use a surveyor who is a member of one of them, not least because they are required to have professional indemnity insurance.

The survey is for your benefit, to ensure the boat you are buying is as the vendor is describing it. Therefore it is you that chooses and pays the surveyor.

Have a look on the ABYA site, for example and you will see the membership requirements and the qualifications of the members. There is no difficulty (particularly in the Solent area) finding a well qualified surveyor acceptable to insurance companies.
Click to expand...


I thought the the survey was primarily for the insurance company

But I think it is a good idea that all surveyors should be well trained, qualified and insured

Dylan
 
Having just bought my first second hand boat, choose an independant surveyor they are working for you not the broker/seller. You are paying them for an opinion on the vessel.

I met the surveyor on the boat when he was doing the work and so had a first hand impression on what he thought, had a very detailed report with no surprizes (after meeting him) and all the pictures he took of the boat not just the ones in his report on a CD.

The insurance company were quite correct in rejecting the brokers survey.

You can still have the dream just follow the RYA process, it is tried and tested, and if the broker says, "we don't do it like that", then walk away there are lots of good boats out there.
 
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dylanwinter said:
you can buy a cheap little boat

use your common sense to see if anything is loose or rusted

ask a few questions on the web

not have it surveyed

and insure it third party

you might even enjoy sailing it

for me it is one of the glories of sailing in the UK

not too many compulsory regulations

Dylan
Click to expand...

+1

My boat came as a last ditch part exchange attempt by a chap buying a car from my father-in-law.

Took a look around it and used our common sense before agreeing. Was floating just fine in the marina, no water in the bilge, good looking covers and upolstery with no obvious water damage on the inside and the outboard started first pull. Only thing we noticed was it didnt have a battery, so £100 later we dont need to pull start. Only things that it needs drastically fixing are 2 pains of cracked cockpit glass.

2 months of great fun on the river and now its been given to me as a birthday present.

Insured 3rd party for £80 for the year. I dont think I would be a boat owner if we had of gone the "official" route.

If the boat is expensive then I can see the point, but if its a first punt and the boat isnt breaking the bank I dont know how much it will add to the deal.
 
dylanwinter said:
I thought the the survey was primarily for the insurance company

But I think it is a good idea that all surveyors should be well trained, qualified and insured

Dylan
Click to expand...
If you are buying a substantial boat then a survey is advisable whether the insurance company wants it or not. You have no recourse against a private seller once you have taken ownership, so the survey is both your confirmation that the boat is sound and potentially some insurance should there turn out to be problems after purchase. If the surveyor does his job properly the boat should be sound before he recommends you buy it (or negotiate repairs).

Insurance companies ask for a survey when taking on a new boat as confirmation that it is sound and that the value (and therefore the risk) is realistic. Clearly they are less concerned if they are not insuring the boat, only the third party risks.

As Chinita says, there is no shortage of well qualified experienced surveyors, members of YDSA, RINA, IIMS which are the most common accrediting bodies.
 
dylanwinter said:
you can buy a cheap little boat

use your common sense to see if anything is loose or rusted

ask a few questions on the web

not have it surveyed

and insure it third party
Click to expand...

To be fair Dylan, it is far easier for you to look over a cheap boat with an experienced eye than it is for someone new to sailing.
 
chinita said:
I would not go near an non-YDSA surveyor, neither will any reputable insurance company.
Click to expand...

RINA might take objection to that. :)

I'd be surprised if an insurance company wasn't perfectly happy with an IIMS surveyor, although my own opinion based on encounters with a very small number of them is not great.
 
Why would you want a boat surveyed by the seller, or even by the insurance company come to that? You want it surveyed by someone independent who is working on your behalf, not on anyone else's.
 
Glynny said:
Hi all, I want to buy a boat. I have been advised by the RYA to go down a certain route which was given to me in a numerical order. One of the steps suggests getting a survey by a reputable surveyor.
I looked at the various organisations that a UK surveyor can be trained by and, ultimately, can become a member of. I think you know who I am talking about....
I then came by a boat which was being sold at Endeavour Quay in Gosport. A really nice yacht with 5 berths and reasonable fit-out. It was being sold by a company called The Boat Breakers . com. I asked the various and typical questions (questions that are advised by the RYA). The company then suggested that I use their in-house Survey team prior to purchase. I asked if they had any of the "normal" accreditations to the governing bodies of the Surveying world.
Their answer - NO, we don't need them.

I asked my insurance company if they would recognise this type of survey.
Their answer - NO.

Why is this industry so fragmented a with so many "cottage industry" wannabees? I work in education as a Lecturer. I am inspected and inspected again on a regular basis and, to be honest, I welcome this aspect. I am sent on regular training courses to enable latest cohesion with mandatory technique and methodology.I still want to own my own little boat however, I feel that, whilst I have endeavoured to research the subject and become intimate with certain brands that I feel will suffice for my family needs, I am being thrown to the mercy of the lions by not having a proper regarded system that is universal (at least within europe) to serve the buying public. One can spend a small fortune on a vessel that, having been "surveyed" prior to purchase or even just for the purpose of Insurance valuation, then all falls to rat**** when it is found that the "survey" is not worth even the paper it is written upon?
Why are companies such as the above being allowed to trade?

It certainly takes the shine off the dream.
Click to expand...

To be honest if that takes the shime of your drean look for another dream. This is the real world and you will come up against all sort from the salt of the earth to thieves and vagabonds.
 
The issue seems to be that your insurance company doesnt accept the surveyor.
You blame the surveyor? The insurance company maybe hasnt heard of them and needs some verification of value, but you dont need to insure your boat, legally, and you dont need even to have a survey. There are plenty of insurance companies.
What you should be wondering is whether the company selling the boat has any vested interest in the survey, and the asnwer to that is , quite possibly.
So instead or complaining about the surveyor/insurance conflict, maybe you should wonder if it is your own interest to employ someone independent.
Sounds like the issue comes back to you, IMHO.
 
The seller / broker has offered up a solution which you have rightly rejected. No need to be dispondant. You are selecting and employing a surveyor to work for you just like any other tradesman.

You should select and employ a surveyor if
1. You do not have the knowledge or experience to assess the boat yourself
2. You have assessed the boat yourself, but would like another (professional) opinion
3. It is an expensive boat and you value the surveyors liability insurance
4. Your insurance company is going to insist on a survey anyway

Be aware that there is significant variation in the way that marine surveyors carry out their work (and lecturers). Approach several, talk to them and ask for a sample report.

1. If you want hull readings, chose one that provides them as a matter of routine or ask for them to be specified.
2. Most will be fine with an AWB. If the boat is unusual find a surveyor with relavent experience
2. Many struggle with report writing. In my experience "Find and Replace" errors are very common. For example, I recieved one that said "the sprayhood canvas needs replacing" ... the boat didn't have a sprayhood!
3. Some have pet subjects or include common deficiencies, for example, wooden bungs fixed to seacocks and barrel bolts on washboards.
4. Too many cop outs. For example, "I was unable to assess the sails or engine because ..." In fairness, circumstances can make it very hard to identify problems. For example, certain types of grounding damage or engine/gearbox faults
 
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Glynny said:
I then came by a boat which was being sold at Endeavour Quay in Gosport. A really nice yacht with 5 berths and reasonable fit-out. It was being sold by a company called The Boat Breakers . com. I asked the various and typical questions (questions that are advised by the RYA). The company then suggested that I use their in-house Survey team prior to purchase.
Click to expand...

Presumably you are talking about http://www.boatbreakers.com/ and http://www.maritimesurvey.co.uk/index.html

Boatbreakers say "If you want a Project ready yacht or boat to get your teeth into, an insurance write off, or a bargain boat, this is the place to be, as we’re going to get you hooked!

Boat Breakers specialise in finding and selling project ready boats. If you have a yacht or motorboat that needs work, is tired or isn’t as good as she could be and you want her sold, call us."

Is that an irresistible sales pitch or does it make you think "Hm, need to keep my wits about me here."?

Anyway, you thought you'd have a survey, and not liking the surveyors proposed by the seller (if you were buying a house, would you use a surveyor associated with the estate agent, regardless of their qualifications?) you sensibly went elsewhere.

What's the problem?

Seems to me you just want more and more regulation and nanny state, like many of your fellow academics in my experience.

Surely in the real world we have to watch out for ourselves to some extent.
 
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entry level

it would be quite useful to know what boat you are looking at and how much you are being asked to pay

my neighbour picked up a cracking little Express Pirate from ebay for £500 and is having the most wonderful time sailing it

he is going to spend a few weekends this winter making mistakes by himself before deciding to introduce his family to day sailing and sleeping at nights safely moored to a mud pontoon in Brightlingsea

I quite understand that if you need five berths and a super safe, super inspected boat safe boat for your family of five to sail on with a relative novice then there might be a bit of a problem if you wish to do things by the RYA book

I am not entirley sure that Boat breakers is for you

generally speaking....... I add generally speaking.....

as I said.... generally speaking

http://www.glasswings.com.au/comics/ozyandmillie.au/2000/om20000723.html


the RYA are not that interested in people at the cheap and cheerful end of the spectrum

and Boat breakers would seem to be at the cheap and cheerful end

you can try andy seedhouse

I assume this is the five berth boat you are looking at

http://www.boatbreakers.com/mystere.html

it has a crazy steering wheel that looks too small to use and there is something weird going on with the keel

but.... I am completley unqualified

but for a £3,500 boat I think you nwould end up paying £500 for a survey that would tell you that the sterring wheel lokks too small, there is something weird with the keel, it has had a bit of a bash on the bow

Dylan


you could also try Andy Seedhouse at Woodbridge - lovely, lovely man but he is in the business of shifting old plastic
 
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Having looked at the links it is clear that this is not a "normal" boat buying/selling situation. The seller deals in problem boats and has a related business advising and project managing repairs etc.

Such an activity should be approached with caution. If they are selling on their own account (that is they own the boats) you are covered by consumer law. However, they almost certainly are acting as agents for the owners of these clapped out boats, so all the caveats about buying privately apply. If you do not know what you are doing and are aware of and prepared to take the risks, run away.

It is misleading to compare this type of situation with the normal buying and selling of functioning secondhand boats. It is more akin to a car from a scrapyard or salvage yard and just the same care is needed.

So, to the OP. If you want to buy a usable boat, go through the conventional procedure, buying either privately of through a broker. Avoid fringe operators such as this, and don't use your experience there as indicating that there are problems with the market which do not exist.

As Troubadour says, you have to take some responsibility for yourself. If you think it looks dodgy then don't get involved. There are plenty of good boats around and good surveyors willing to advise you on your purchase.
 
Troubadour said:
Presumably you are talking about http://www.boatbreakers.com/ and http://www.maritimesurvey.co.uk/index.html
Click to expand...

I hadn't realised that. Looks like a very interesting place. Does seem to be the place that an experienced PBO type or even a boatyard worker would go to buy a boat rather than a newcomer to sailing.


I would suggest to the OP that unless he really wants a project boat and he has a good idea what he's getting in to he should look elsewhere. Not much point in getting a survey, the boats are likely to fail and the seller is unlikely to agree to rectify anything. The insurance company would probably want a survey at the end of the project when the boat is ready to go to sea.

Maybe better for him to look at a boat in seaworthy condition that he can sail.
 
dylanwinter said:
you can buy a cheap little boat

use your common sense to see if anything is loose or rusted

ask a few questions on the web

not have it surveyed

and insure it third party

you might even enjoy sailing it

for me it is one of the glories of sailing in the UK

not too many compulsory regulations

Dylan
Click to expand...

Went that route - bought on Ebay - a good buy, in top notch condition & v. v. reasonable as all in the YC thought.
 
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