Buying a used motor yacht in Italy / Need some help for sales process

[MapisM]

10%

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Yup agree. The sale / purchase contract needs to be very clear about your options / reasons to pull out of the deal at any point.

 

[47GC]

10%…. Into a client account with the broker.

 

[Skipper Felice]

10%…. Into a client account with the broker.

Ok .... thanks
What do you mean with "client account with the broker." ?
WHO is the holder / beneficare of the account ?

 

[47GC]

Ok .... thanks
What do you mean with "client account with the broker." ?
WHO is the holder / beneficare of the account ?

A client account in the UK is a bank account used to hold money for a client. It's held by a professional, such as the agent/broker, on behalf of their client. In the UK you would look for the words Client Account in the account name etc.

 

[Tranona]

Ok .... thanks
What do you mean with "client account with the broker." ?
WHO is the holder / beneficare of the account ?

In the UK it is held in a special form of trust account operated by the broker completely separate from his business. In principle the same as an Escrow account where a rhird party holds the money on yourr behalf and only releases in accordance with the terms of your contract to buy the boat. Not sure exactly what form this takes in Italy but pretty sure it will be secure.

 

[Skipper Felice]

Nothing at all against him, but according to the website they are authorized service only for MAN.
For surveying a C12 powered boat (and as I said previously, without knowing which instruments are already available onboard), I'd rather look for a Cat service.
Unfortunately, I don't know any in that area that I could recommend, but the principle still stands anyway.

Ok - I had some contact with the MAN mechanic Garbarino. They told me to go to the official CAT workshop:

Home
and to contact this l'officina AUTOMAR S.R.L..

Has someone of you experts a name or contact for a reliable Caterpillar mechanic around Liguria / Region Imperia, Sanremo ?
Do you know the CAT experts of AUTOMAR S.R.L.. ?

 

[Skipper Felice]

Hello yachting experts: An update of my boat buying experience

We had a great half day visit on the boat in italy and some very good conversation with the broker and the owner, along with his wife. The owner has spent the weekend on the boat. He owns this Azimut 50 for about 5 years, Italian flag and "blue book" ok. The boat was first sold in 2006 to unknown owner in Spain/Portugal, then came back to Italy - Italian flag. I would be the 4th owner.

To make the whole story short: The yacht is in very good condition: deck, fly, teak, salon, helm station, big galley, 2 cabins, 1 aft. crew cabin with no issues. All very nice maintained, some parts with refits. We love the layout - it would be the perfect size for our project.
We agreed to a good price ... I could go with the contract tomorrow !!! ... The broker is a well know company with reputation in the Italian market.

BUT: ... my heart and some feelings tell me that I am not yet confident with the engine / service history / nautic gear / technical installation:
- Engine 2x CAT C12 2005, 3196, 660 hp, 1100 hours, service interval is 250 hrs
- A visual inspection of the engine room and all technical equipement tells me: seems ok, maintenance + oil + filter + anodes ++++ has been done.
- Most / all pipes have been replaced over the last 6 years - some OEM parts.
- Air and exhaust system new built, clean and +/- 4 years old.
- all works done by local / skilled engineers - NO record about official italian CAT service or log or contact
- based on some talk with the local engineer, the AFTERCOOLER problem does not exist in this engines

- OK but I got NO written documentation from any service history
- I got no written bills of work, replacement parts, no print out from ECM history, no "official" mesurements, no ECM fault reports etc. ... ...

I would like to bring some light into this - I will contact the broker to sort it out - I am a bit lost ... ...

 

[47GC]

So you have not had her surveyed yet? If this is the case, I would ask the broker to provide written evidence to the servicing of the engines/pods/genny if applicable. This will give you some comfort on receipt. Then you would get her surveyed and arrange for the local engine maintenance dealer to accompany the surveyor on a sea trail. The engineer should check for any error codes, clear them, sea trial then recheck for any new codes. Additionally they can visually check the oil, or if agreed with the seller, take a sample of oil for analysis. if the boat is on pods, lift her out and have the engineer visually check the pods. Ive just completed the above process and it uncovered a potential seal damage on the pod. The seller has agreed to deduct said seal replacement and pressure test etc. Some ~£1500 deduction from the purchase price. So paid for the survey and some of the engineer time. Worth it in my book.

 

[petem]

Hello yachting experts: An update of my boat buying experience

We had a great half day visit on the boat in italy and some very good conversation with the broker and the owner, along with his wife. The owner has spent the weekend on the boat. He owns this Azimut 50 for about 5 years, Italian flag and "blue book" ok. The boat was first sold in 2006 to unknown owner in Spain/Portugal, then came back to Italy - Italian flag. I would be the 4th owner.

To make the whole story short: The yacht is in very good condition: deck, fly, teak, salon, helm station, big galley, 2 cabins, 1 aft. crew cabin with no issues. All very nice maintained, some parts with refits. We love the layout - it would be the perfect size for our project.
We agreed to a good price ... I could go with the contract tomorrow !!! ... The broker is a well know company with reputation in the Italian market.

BUT: ... my heart and some feelings tell me that I am not yet confident with the engine / service history / nautic gear / technical installation:
- Engine 2x CAT C12 2005, 3196, 660 hp, 1100 hours, service interval is 250 hrs
- A visual inspection of the engine room and all technical equipement tells me: seems ok, maintenance + oil + filter + anodes ++++ has been done.
- Most / all pipes have been replaced over the last 6 years - some OEM parts.
- Air and exhaust system new built, clean and +/- 4 years old.
- all works done by local / skilled engineers - NO record about official italian CAT service or log or contact
- based on some talk with the local engineer, the AFTERCOOLER problem does not exist in this engines

- OK but I got NO written documentation from any service history
- I got no written bills of work, replacement parts, no print out from ECM history, no "official" mesurements, no ECM fault reports etc. ... ...

I would like to bring some light into this - I will contact the broker to sort it out - I am a bit lost ... ...

Probably paid for "cash in hand" so no invoices or receipts. Not uncommon in the Med. It's up to you and your surveyor / mechanic to ascertain if the alleged work was done. Note that the lack of a written service history could hurt you as well when it's tine for you to sell the boat.

 

[Portofino]

Owners normally keep a file / records of engine maintenance.
Doesn’t have to be in this case an official CAT person .
I am a believer in the fresh oil and filters every yr . In my previous boat ( MAN ) the service interval was 400 hrs or annually. Leisure users rarely reach the max ie 400 or in CAT s case 250/yr .

Good news about the exhaust/ riser s are new ish not the original.

If you are getting the CAT agents to do the seatrial ,they should take oil samples for analysis.
Assuming it reaches WOT circa 2300 rpm and the samples come back ok it should be good for go .
You will just have to let the CAT guys give you a report on the charge air coolers .
How ever recent receipts for there anodes would help reassure you .
Surprised the seller ( via the broker ) hasn’t gathered a thick file of engine maintenance .
I prepared one for the buyer when I sold mine . You have to .

Doing 50-60 hr / yr and if the sellers adhering to the 250 hr rule for lub changes isn’t good on the face of it ?
Thinking condensation , water and time degradation of the oil additives ……having said this the oil analysis which now is a must , will throw up any concerns if the degradation has effected the protection of any bearings like big end or little end , or cylinder liner materials ?

So proceed with the contract subject to sea trail engine survey reaching WOT and holding normal temps , no alarms / codes and if it passes this pending the satisfactory results of an oil analysis.

You need both tests to be positive, to conclude the deal . Write this up in the contract .
If one fails return deposit.

 

[petem]

Surprised the seller ( via the broker ) hasn’t gathered a thick file of engine maintenance .
I prepared one for the buyer when I sold mine . You have to .

Not everyone is as diligent as you or I so there are lots of boats out there with minimal or no service history.

 

[markc]

Boat is approaching 20 years old and I think you'd be lucky to find a boat with a comprehensive history. I was the 3rd owner on my boat and it was a similar age to yours when I bought it and I had MTU attend the survey and survey the engines against spec, and i was happy on that basis. I think that's the best you can hope for. However, if you are like me and Porto, you'll keep absolutely every record of everything that's done to the boat during your ownership, so when it comes to sell you'll be one of the rare sellers that has a big 'pack of confidence' you can pass on.

 

[Skipper Felice]

OK - thankyou all ... this gives me the direction to proceed.

 

[Seastoke]

It seems that the buyer wants to Skip the costs of engine and survey.

 

[Portofino]

It seems that the buyer wants to Skip the costs of engine and survey.

I don’t think so see post #47 , it’s in hand .My MAN guy has referred him on to CAT people that do the marina .

 

[benjenbav]

3 big heads of concern:

Do they own it/have right to sell it unencumbered? - seems you’re well advanced on that.

What’s the fabric of the boat like?- here, you’ve done walkthrough but - I think - not had a surveyor poke into the corners.

What are the engines like (in terms of condition)? - here you haven’t got to base camp because there’s no history to reference. If you don’t pay an expert to look at this issue, you’re in the equivalent of staring into the business end of a Magnum 44 and trying to work out if there are any rounds left. As someone once said, you have to ask yourself, do you feel lucky?

 

[Binnacle]

While noting Seastoke's comment in #55, one looks back at the earlier posts from the OP. There's an echo in recent OP posts of the early stages of SF's possible wish to accelerate the process of buying a undefined large mobo for a potential commercial purpose, and to identify the likely costs and activities required, for example, for registration and crew costs in various countries. The numerous questions targeted at the wide, helpful experiences and generous inclinations of big boat forum members have yielded pretty consistently the wisdom and value of appointing an experienced project manager for the purchase and set up. However, it seems that recent posts, e.g. about contractual process, are returning to show that the OP wishes to plough his own furrow.

I do hope that, as BJB says, he feels lucky enough to continue to run the project under his own direction, without exhausting the goodwill of the forum's big mobo owners and professionals.

 

[Portofino]

3 big heads of concern:

Do they own it/have right to sell it unencumbered? - seems you’re well advanced on that.

What’s the fabric of the boat like?- here, you’ve done walkthrough but - I think - not had a surveyor poke into the corners.

What are the engines like (in terms of condition)? - here you haven’t got to base camp because there’s no history to reference. If you don’t pay an expert to look at this issue, you’re in the equivalent of staring into the business end of a Magnum 44 and trying to work out if there are any rounds left. As someone once said, you have to ask yourself, do you feel lucky?

Careful banding Magnum 44 about on here . [ I know this isn’t what you mean ]

 

[Skipper Felice]

It seems that the buyer wants to Skip the costs of engine and survey.

No ... But I try to find the best, lean solution to get the relevant data. And I only want to pay for the real experts ... not the many "lo amigo Jovanni" who are doing consulting in all ways !