Buying a mab with a knackered old engine

[steve yates]

I'm looking for advice on a fairly basic question, but one I have no clue about.

I'm going to buying something in a month or so probably, 23-27 footish.
While I understand that boats like Dylan's, with recent engines will probably deserve a premium. I am going to assume that generally a 5-6 k boat is only worth around 3k, unless it has been recently reengined, simply because it will never be worth replacing the old thing when ( not if) it conks out.

I am basing that kind of valuation on an assumption that the boat can still be used normally with an outboard on a folding bracket over the stern, and the engine utterly ignored.

Am I right in thinking this? If so what kind of hp vs weight of boat should I be looking at to be useful.

Is leaving an old engine in and ignoring it going to give rise to risk of water ingress or sinking?

I'm guessing prop drag will lose me a know or so, but I'm not so interested in speed anyway.

Are there any pressing reasons why I MUST get an inboard engine working again apart from simple propulsion?

If I am wrong about this, then I would need to reassess my thinking, and would then consider a 5-6k boat with an old engine to be inherently worthless, indeed a potential financial drain, and only look at boats with outboards on stern or in a well.

If I am right it opens up my potential purchases enormously.

Thanks.

I should probably also add that my assesment of value, for me, is also heavily influenced by the fact that I will probably only keep this boat for 1-2 years and will want to shift it on quickly, probably at a very low price.. as I don't want it. To become a monthly cost after a certain point.

 

[Ludd]

I'm looking for advice on a fairly basic question, but one I have no clue about.

I'm going to buying something in a month or so probably, 23-27 footish.
While I understand that boats like Dylan's, with recent engines will probably deserve a premium. I am going to assume that generally a 5-6 k boat is only worth around 3k, unless it has been recently reengined, simply because it will never be worth replacing the old thing when ( not if) it conks out.

I am basing that kind of valuation on an assumption that the boat can still be used normally with an outboard on a folding bracket over the stern, and the engine utterly ignored.

Am I right in thinking this? If so what kind of hp vs weight of boat should I be looking at to be useful.

Is leaving an old engine in and ignoring it going to give rise to risk of water ingress or sinking?

I'm guessing prop drag will lose me a know or so, but I'm not so interested in speed anyway.

Are there any pressing reasons why I MUST get an inboard engine working again apart from simple propulsion?

If I am wrong about this, then I would need to reassess my thinking, and would then consider a 5-6k boat with an old engine to be inherently worthless, indeed a potential financial drain, and only look at boats with outboards on stern or in a well.

If I am right it opens up my potential purchases enormously.

Thanks.

General rule is 4hp per ton. Assuming boat 3tons that means an outboard (with a sail drive prop) of 12-15 hp. You'd need a pretty substantial bracket to carry that, and the weight would be well outboard (oops!) at the stern. In a chop the prop could spend a lot of time out of the water! The cost of that lot I think would outweigh the cost of fixing MOST small diesels.
I had a knackered Volvo in my boat---I replaced it with a less knackered engine (of a different type). The problems were exhhaust was on oppsite side of engine, I had to fabricate neww mounts, etc WELL worth it in the long run!
Moral of story? If boat has knackered engine, make sure you buy an identical engine to replace it.
No connection, just a satisfied customer, but Marine Enterprises in Dorset do s/h engines of all sorts. When they re- engine a boat , they acquire the old engine, bench test it and will be honest about any problem.
Having read your sailing exploits, you seem to have my attitude---it's a sailing boat, engine extra. So all you need, as I do ,is an engine that will start on demand and run for a few hours. Whether it is noisy or burns a bit of oil or smells a bit is immaterial.

 

[jwilson]

A lot of pre-1970s-1980s sailing yachts had a lot less han 4 hp per ton - one of mine had less than 1 hp per ton. The engine was to go in and out of harbour and bring you home if the wind died to nothing. If you accept that proposition power requirements are minimal, and even a tiny engine will (eventually) get most hulls up to 4 knots at least in flat water and no wind.

Outboards on a transom backet are pretty horrible to live with: boat pitches in a swell and the engine/prop alternately screams in air and bites again in water and suddenly jars the transom bracket. The bigger the o/b the worse....

 

[Tranona]

Once you get above 25' in the sort of boats you are looking at an outboard becomes increasingly impractical. Not only do you need a 10hp+ which is heavy and unwieldy, but they are difficult to operate because of the freeboard of the boat.

Look around boatyards and harbours and count how many boats of the type actually have an outboard. This will give you your answer.

Of course most boats in your price range will have the original engines, but that does not mean that all will be unusable. For example I know of a reasonable Centaur with its original Volvo 23hp that is fine - and may be coming on the market soon at the right price. Located on the south coast so perhaps not of any use to you.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Buying a MAB with an old engine is fine but one with a knackered engine is for the dreamers and project lovers. For a yard to change the engine a 15hp replacement will cost you £10k if you're lucky because everything will need doing. You can buy a whole Neptune 33 with a nice engine for £13k - see the site linked to on my signature. Buying a boat like Dylan's for £8k makes huge sense, buying a £9k boat for £5k because you think it will need a new engine is dumb, it's not even worth £0. But.....age of engine and engine hours mean nothing, you can utterly wreck a new engine in 30 minutes and keep a 50 year old 20,000 hours one running like a sewing machine. The question is about condition and servicing schedule. Yet people pay £700 for a purchase survey to check stuff they could check themselves and spend nothing on a survey and oil analysis of the engine.

 

[{151760}]

I'd just like to emphasise the difference between an outboard in a well, with the prop ahead of the rudder and a separate fuel tank which is easy to fill, from an engine hung off the transom, off centre, providing no water flow over the rudder. The former is more than adequate, and more than an auxiliary in a flat calm. It is very noisy, though, and storing petrol rather than diesel should be considered carefully.
I had a boat with an excellent 'outboard-in-a-well' set-up for 10 years. We had an 8hp Suzuki on an Achilles 24 (2.5tons including gear?), which I later changed for a 4hp Mariner. Both had battery-charging equipment. The four-horse was fine in a range of conditions. I never tried motoring into a strong wind at sea, though I recall motoring up the Beaulieu River into a force 5 or so. I now have an inboard diesel. I wouldn't go back to an outboard.
Having a thorough investigation of an old engine shouldn't cost too much. As someone else said a good installation of an outboard will cost quite a lot anyway.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

... You can buy a whole Neptune 33 with a nice engine for £13k - see the site linked to on my signature...

Need to join the site to read the posts. Have just sent request, maybe I'm a closet m/s lover...

 

[Tam Lin]

Buying a MAB with an old engine is fine but one with a knackered engine is for the dreamers and project lovers. For a yard to change the engine a 15hp replacement will cost you £10k if you're lucky because everything will need doing. You can buy a whole Neptune 33 with a nice engine for £13k - see the site linked to on my signature. Buying a boat like Dylan's for £8k makes huge sense, buying a £9k boat for £5k because you think it will need a new engine is dumb, it's not even worth £0. But.....age of engine and engine hours mean nothing, you can utterly wreck a new engine in 30 minutes and keep a 50 year old 20,000 hours one running like a sewing machine. The question is about condition and servicing schedule. Yet people pay £700 for a purchase survey to check stuff they could check themselves and spend nothing on a survey and oil analysis of the engine.

Steve, this guy talks a lot of sense.

Of course you could always take out the engine and fit an outboard well..............

 

[doug748]

..........
I should probably also add that my assesment of value, for me, is also heavily influenced by the fact that I will probably only keep this boat for 1-2 years and will want to shift it on quickly, probably at a very low price.. as I don't want it. To become a monthly cost after a certain point.

You hear a lot of general theories from shaky evidence on these pages, you may be in danger of over thinking things. All you gotta do is find a good boat for you at a cheap price and off you go. You then make it a bit better, sail it for two years and sell at a small loss if you have to. Any loss (or indeed gain) you make is insignificant in terms of running expenses, as you know and Mr D Winter has demonstrated.

Should be easy as things stand on the boaty market.

Anyroad you know much of this. Here is something more practical:

https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/marcon-sabre-27/1215095151

Cheap but condition unknown, may get it for a rude offer, likely to have a questionable inboard. We do know that these boats work well under outboard, Ken Endean has one he took the inboard out of:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?221209-Marcon-Sabre-27

10 hp would be fine or maybe a Mercury 9hp longshaft.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Need to join the site to read the posts. Have just sent request, maybe I'm a closet m/s lover...

Sorted and who knows - all you need is an appreciation of being able to motor or sail with a modicum of comfort. Ask almost any cruising sailor and if they're being honest they'll tell you they motor half the time, all a m/s does is sacrifice some sailing ability to give more comfort and a decent motoring ability. Some think the sacrifice is worth it, most don't, fair enough.

 

[Quandary]

Steve, there are two Westerlys for sale in our club yard here, the first is a fin keel Longbow, ketch rig, which has been ashore in the yard for about five years, (the owner has family problems, and has lost any hope of using her again), The owner has been told to launch her this year or else? and has told me he would consider any offer, I understand the engine was replaced just before she was laid up, and last year he put in a lot of work but did not make the crane day. there is no broker involved but if you were interested I can get more details. The Club want her out of the yard so we would be prepared to help get her ready for sea.
The second is a bilge keel Centaur, mast failed 3 years ago but a second hand replacement was procured and the owner worked on her through the winter of 2015-16, not sure about the engine and perhaps not such a desperate seller but he has promised to move her on before mid. April.
If either of these meet you needs I can get you more comprehensive details and pass on any silly offers you want to make, I have already promised the Longbow owner help with any work including launching and we are keen to clear the yard, we also might be able to help with delivery.
Let me know if either model is of interest and I will make some enquiries regarding spec. and condition.

 

[steve yates]

Thanks all, perhaps the word knackered engine was too strong, but I'm kinda assuming that any boat engine that's 30-50 years old will probably be on its last legs.
Quandry, that sounds interesting, yes please, I would be very interested.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Sorted and who knows - all you need is an appreciation of being able to motor or sail with a modicum of comfort. Ask almost any cruising sailor and if they're being honest they'll tell you they motor half the time, all a m/s does is sacrifice some sailing ability to give more comfort and a decent motoring ability. Some think the sacrifice is worth it, most don't, fair enough.

~Thanks.

 

[armchairsailor]

It's interesting what people are saying about outboards on 25' + boats being increasingly difficult to use. On my coast there are a huge number of 27' boats with outboards either on brackets or mounted in a stern well - mainly Catalina (Jaguar) 27s sporting long shaft 9.9hp motors.

Personally I much prefer inboards but do see the versatility of an outboard if it behaves in lumpy seas. Certainly there is less bumpy stuff on the east side of Vancouver island so that's probably a factor, but nevertheless they are extremely popular.

The other benefit I see to an OB is being able to pull it off and stick it on your fishing skiff as a trolling motor. Not that I'm saying you need two boats or anything! ;-)

 

[aquaplane]

To address your OP.

If you are looking at 23-27' yachts, the bits that go with them like battery charging and other comfort/safety stuff could use an alternator to look after the batteries, an outboard won't be up to it even if it will get you in and out of harbour when needed.

f you do go down the knackered engine + outboard route you can remove the redundant prop and it won't cost you sailing speed.

You should be able to get a boat with a recent engine, by recent I mean <10yrs old, for a reasonable price, but expect some other faults that need cash throwing at them. The sum of the bits could be more than a big ticket item.

Quandry's Longbow may look a bit big now but could be a good option, as an ex-Centaur owner I would rather live on a 31' than a 26'. Getting a Longbow for a Centaur price would be taking the piss a bit.

 

[PhillM]

My old wooden mab cost about £7k to re-engine. Brand new beta 14. Take the engine cost and x2 to cover all the other stuff.

But I wouldn't be without a decent engine. Before I had one, it was always an additional stress. Now it's one less thing to worry about.

If you want a keeper, buy wooden, then paint, varnish, repeat

 

[JumbleDuck]

My old wooden mab cost about £7k to re-engine. Brand new beta 14. Take the engine cost and x2 to cover all the other stuff.

My 14 hp Nanni cost me £3764.40 delivered and fitting (including parts) looks like being another £1300 or so, making (fiddles with fingers) about £5k all in. £4k net, because I sold my 1GM10 for almost a thousand. I'm lucky in not having had to replace much else - same shaft, propellor (for now), exhaust and fuel system - though I did have the inlet seacock moved to a place accessible to more than double-jointed apes. There's a lot of scarey talk about having to replace everything, but if the old system has been reasonably well maintained then it's likely that a fair bit will be re-usable.

 

[Poignard]

A lot depends on what you mean by "knackered" and whether you are able to repair things yourself ( or are willing to learn; which is almost as good ). An engine that needs say, pistons, rings, valve guides, valves, injector service etc. is a long way from being knackered if you can do the work yourself; and there's no reason you can't. With a good workshop manual, decent tools, patience and self-confidence you can carry out a major engine overhaul and enjoy doing it. Don't be put off by doomsayers (and people who want to sell you a new engine!).

 

[jonic]

Buying a MAB with an old engine is fine but one with a knackered engine is for the dreamers and project lovers. For a yard to change the engine a 15hp replacement will cost you £10k if you're lucky because everything will need doing. You can buy a whole Neptune 33 with a nice engine for £13k - see the site linked to on my signature. Buying a boat like Dylan's for £8k makes huge sense, buying a £9k boat for £5k because you think it will need a new engine is dumb, it's not even worth £0. But.....age of engine and engine hours mean nothing, you can utterly wreck a new engine in 30 minutes and keep a 50 year old 20,000 hours one running like a sewing machine. The question is about condition and servicing schedule. Yet people pay £700 for a purchase survey to check stuff they could check themselves and spend nothing on a survey and oil analysis of the engine.

Best post I have read in a long time regarding engines. :encouragement:

 

[steve yates]

So who would you look for to do a survey and oil analysis on an engine, and what's the typical price range?